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Author Topic:   UK's Thatcher, rot in hell . . .
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 149 (696477)
04-16-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dronestar
04-16-2013 9:53 AM


dronester writes:
Under both Thatcher and Reagan, there was the escalation of the Cold War, income taxes was cut, privatization was pushed, tax rates for the rich were lowered, unions were broken, globalization over national interests were advanced, and military spending was massively increased.
None of which is a crime - and all of which had/have significant popular support.
dronester writes:
The result was rising unemployment, stagnant or lowering of wages, and higher poverty rates . . . lower standards of living for the 99%.
And yet, many of that 99% voted for the measures that supposedly caused those effects. You seem to be thumbing your nose at democracy as much as at Thatcher.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 9:53 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 12:20 PM ringo has replied
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2013 12:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 149 (696484)
04-16-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2013 12:31 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
How familiar are you with the British electoral system?
As far as I know, it's very similar to the Canadian system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2013 12:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2013 12:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 149 (696488)
04-16-2013 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by dronestar
04-16-2013 12:20 PM


dronester writes:
BUT, I have often said that voters often vote against their best interests for a number of reasons.
You don't get to decide what their best interests are.
dronester writes:
Health care reform for government-style sinlge payer system health care in the US WAS at 70%. So why didn't the governemnt do what we wanted?
What the people want and what they vote for and how the government treats their wants are three different matters.
A better question might be: Why do you re-elect legislators that don't do what you want?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 12:20 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 12:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 149 (696633)
04-17-2013 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by dronestar
04-16-2013 12:44 PM


dronester writes:
But, if their best interests intersect my best interests, there seems to be a problem.
Your interests give you the right to an opinion, nothing else. You can try to convince others of what their own best interests are but it's futile to tell them that their choice is wrong or their choice should "rot in hell".
dronester writes:
I never have persuaded a person from voting lesser evil. If you know a way, please enlighten me.
You may have to run for office yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by dronestar, posted 04-16-2013 12:44 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by dronestar, posted 04-18-2013 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 67 of 149 (696636)
04-17-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2013 12:50 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
My point would be that no-one (strictly speaking) voted for Thatcher at all, and only a minority voted for her party.
None the less, that is the democratic process. It's intended to satisfy the maximum number of people. The magic number "fifty per cent plus one" is arbitrary and meaningless.
Dr adequate writes:
Indeed, if one of the American parties got as small a proportion of the vote as the Conservatives did, it would be considered a crushing defeat.
I don't know about the UK but in Canada a minority government is often considered by the "winning" party to be a crushing defeat. It often makes for better government, though. It encourages radical practices such as "cooperation between parties".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2013 12:50 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 12:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 149 (696643)
04-17-2013 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2013 12:46 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
ringo writes:
None the less, that is the democratic process. It's intended to satisfy the maximum number of people.
Well, it didn't.
Personal satisfaction is a volatile and fickle thing. Unfortunately, most ballots don't have an option for "reverse the result of the election if I change my mind later on".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 12:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 149 (696648)
04-17-2013 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2013 1:13 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
Who voted her in?
Oh, right, a minority.
Sour grapes make good whine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 149 (696653)
04-17-2013 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2013 1:27 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
You should look up the meaning of the term "sour grapes" before using it again. It does not mean what you think it means.
I think it means, for example, when somebody points out that X won the election and the sour-grapesman replies that it was only because the system is flawed. The fact remains that X won the election - i.e. you didn't get the grapes you wanted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 149 (696660)
04-17-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2013 1:41 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
"They didn't hire me? Well, that company sucks anyway, I'd have hated working there. I'm lucky I didn't get the job." That's sour grapes.
That's close enough for anything but an argumentum ad dictionarium.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 2:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 149 (696702)
04-18-2013 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2013 2:12 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
If you don't want words to mean what they mean, then all I have to say to you is that you are an avuncular watermelon who frequently macerates contrapuntal anteaters while you perversely interpret inconsequential conurbations.
To paraphrase the inimitable Dr Adequate, if you had nothing to say, you could have said it much more concisely.
Are you ducking the issue intentionally? The point is that Margaret Thatcher was elected democratically. Whether she was chosen by a "minority" or a "majority" is irrelevant. The fact is that she was the best choice for the greatest number of people. That fact was reaffirmed twice. If you don't like the process that was used to choose her, boo-hoo, but facts is facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 2:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2013 2:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 149 (696705)
04-18-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by dronestar
04-18-2013 11:52 AM


dronester writes:
When Bush Jr, the immoral retard, wanted to invade Afghanistan/Iraq, he had about 90% support from americans.
Democracy may not be a perfect system but it's the best one we have. And it shouldn't be blamed for people's everyday opinions, just the elections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by dronestar, posted 04-18-2013 11:52 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by dronestar, posted 04-18-2013 12:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 149 (696713)
04-18-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dr Adequate
04-17-2013 1:26 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
My point is that her election did not satisfy the majority of voters at the point when they went into the voting booths and voted.
As I have said, "majority" is an arbitrary and irrelevant number. Thatcher's election satisfied the largest number of people.
Dr Adequate writes:
The last time she was elected (and she wasn't, her party was)....
She was elected indirectly. Elected is elected.
Dr Adequate writes:
... it was by a thumping great 42% of the electorate.
In fact, it's theoretically possible - and I believe it has happened a few times - that the party with the most popular votes doesn't win the most seats. It's not so very different from the American system with its Electoral College, really.
Representative democracy works that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2013 1:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2013 2:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 149 (696714)
04-18-2013 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by dronestar
04-18-2013 12:23 PM


dronester writes:
Who is the government if not the people. Where does the government get its authority and morals from if not from the people?
That's why we have government by representative instead of government by opinion poll. Our elected representatives, as good or bad as they may be, tend to smooth out the whims of public opinion over the long term.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by dronestar, posted 04-18-2013 12:23 PM dronestar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 149 (696876)
04-19-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2013 2:36 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
She was carrying out her own ideology, independent of what the public actually wanted.
The public knew what her ideology was (or ought to have known) when they elected her. They affirmed their support for her ideology by re-electing her twice.
Dr Adequate writes:
A majority of them didn't want her to do those things, and they didn't want her to be Prime Minister.
You keep using the word "majority" as if it had some significance. If Thatcher had been elected by a tiny majority or a substantial majority or a huge majority, would that justify her actions any more than if she was elected by the system that is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2013 2:36 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2013 1:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 123 of 149 (696880)
04-19-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2013 2:40 PM


Dr adequate writes:
And dissatisfied a greater number of people.
It doesn't matter how many people were dissatisfied. If only chocolate and strawberry are on the menu, it doesn't matter if most people want vanilla.
Dr Adequate writes:
Because of the strange British electoral system, this does not follow from the mere fact that she was elected.
As I have mentioned, the British system isn't that different from the American system. Americans seem to have an obsession with numbers like "majority" but that doesn't seem to generate a higher level of satisfaction in their government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2013 2:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Rahvin, posted 04-19-2013 1:02 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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