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Author Topic:   29% of UK teachers favor teaching creationism
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 103 (681397)
11-25-2012 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Granny Magda
11-25-2012 2:35 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
As per your definition of "true Christians"? Vanishingly few and fewer with every year.
This site is chock full of True Christian values.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2012 2:35 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 2:59 PM Larni has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 103 (681400)
11-25-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Larni
11-25-2012 2:40 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
The same is true here, Christianity is in a chaotic shambles really. True Christians complain about how hard it is to find a really good Bible-preaching church.
Larni writes:
I can see where you are comming from but as a Brit it seems clear to me that the average C of E xian is definitely NOT a True Christian.
They know very little about what the Bible actually says and think that by being generally nice you are being Christian. They go to church and sing the songs and give to charity and love Jesus very much but that is about it. There seems to be no in group identification as Christians.
My mum in law is a prime example: church on Sunday, charity work, generally nice but does not particularly self identify as 'Christian first'.
Yes, just the empty shell of Christianity, no knowledge of the Bible, just a thin veneer of what's left of empty tradition.
The Church of England has clearly overall been degenerating for a long time, same as its offshoot here, the Episcopalian churches, full of all kinds of compromises, hardly teaching the rudiments of the Biblical faith any more.
In fact much of Anglicanism seems to be going back to Romanism these days.
There's no danger of the true church, true believers, actually "dying out," however. The "soft and woolly" pew-sitters, compromisers who are just going through the motions, will probably die away but that can only be a good thing. True believers won't die out though. They'll simply become more and more marginalized and it will become harder to hold to the faith because of the ridicule and, could be, the eventual return of persecution as well. But we could use a good injection of the spirit of Tyndale, Ridley and Latimer and all those who courageously died for the true faith.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 2:40 PM Larni has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 103 (681401)
11-25-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
11-25-2012 2:47 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
You do know that's a satirical website, right?

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 2:47 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 3:28 PM Faith has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 19 of 103 (681402)
11-25-2012 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
11-25-2012 2:39 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
I think the British Empire's rise was due to God's blessings but I have to admit that there have been a lot of purely evil empires that have risen to great prominence too.
And the British Empire was one of them. What right had we to govern India? We got it at gunpoint and by horse trading with other thieves and brigands. What right had we to govern any of those places? Only the right of might makes right. We took them by force so that we might pillage them. That's how gangsters behave.
you lost those blessings partly because of how you dealt with the peoples you colonized.
We lost those "blessings" because the people we had robbed took back what was theirs. But yes, the British treated their subjects appallingly and paid the price for it, but by far the greater price was paid by their victims. Apparently, you see this as part of God's plan. It seems like a monstrous plan to me.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:16 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 29 by foreveryoung, posted 11-25-2012 4:07 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 103 (681403)
11-25-2012 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Granny Magda
11-25-2012 3:10 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
Yeah, well, that's the history you have been getting for some time now, rather all black rather than both black and white. Dinesh D'Souza is an Americanized Indian who says he's grateful for the colonization of India because otherwise the nation would never have made it into the modern world.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2012 3:10 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2012 4:24 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 21 of 103 (681404)
11-25-2012 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
11-09-2008 8:27 PM


What is a creationist?
Prior to joining this forum if I had been asked if I was a creationist I would have replied in the affirmative. I assumed that any theist would respond in the affirmative whether or not they accepted the accuracy of the evolutionary process.
I suggest that for members of this forum creationism has a more narrow understanding than I think most people would have. My guess is that many of these teachers would assume that the only alternative to creationism is atheism, and that theistic evolution would qualify as creationism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 11-09-2008 8:27 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:29 PM GDR has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 22 of 103 (681405)
11-25-2012 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
11-25-2012 2:59 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
You do know that's a satirical website, right?
Yeah, but isn't their shtick to be the exact opposite of pew warmers? To literally be True Christians who really do follow the Bible in it's entirety.
This raises the question whether there is a continuum of adhearance to the Bible's teachings for people who claim to be Christians.
The Westboro Baptist's espoused view seem hardly different from Landover Baptist's. Can you point to a difference in what the say? I think this is an issue for many people in the UK. Being a devout Christian is looked on as a eccentricity to be ruefully tolerated (similar to an obsessive interest).
I wonder if many Brits see practicing Christians the same way an American would see a Westboro Baptist (as in a bit of a loony).
I think it's far more cultural acceptable to go on about religion in the US than it is in the UK (reading back what I just wrote using the term 'go on' in a prejoritive sense displays my cultural bias clearly).
Over here it is just not done: it's a conversation killer. It signals awkward silences untill the subject is changed.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 2:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:41 PM Larni has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 103 (681406)
11-25-2012 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
11-25-2012 3:21 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
Yes, there are "theistic creationists" and Muslim creationists and probably all kinds of other creationisms as well, but surely you know that the only Creationism that anyone really cares about, the Creationism that gets everybody here all up in arms, that is the cause of all the furor, is Bible-based Creationism. Nobody in the UK or North America is going to object to your kind of creationism, GDR.
If it's important for the sake of clarity I'd be happy to try to remember to refer to myself as a Biblical Young Earth Creationist. And that's the Creationism I impute to all those I named in my first post.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 11-25-2012 3:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2012 3:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 11-25-2012 4:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 103 (681408)
11-25-2012 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Larni
11-25-2012 3:28 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
I haven't read the Landover site in some time and would rather not. I reject Westboro completely. That's just one bizarre trend of the degeneration of the churches these days. Can't really blame outsiders for not knowing one from the other.
That's one reason I like to point to the greats of Christianity in history. There are some good preachers left here in the US (John MacArthur, Alister Begg, Chuck Betters, Paul Washer, John Piper, actually quite a few more), don't know about the UK, but I tend to prefer the oldies.
Oh John Owen was one I forgot to put on the list, and a bunch of Puritans.
It's only SOMEWHAT more acceptable to "go on" about religion here, and in fact really it isn't any more than it is there. Maybe it's that we're more likely to close our eyes and plunge in and take our lumps for it here. Yes, I guess that's a difference. We can get the silent treatment but also we get some lumps for it. I get both kinds of reactions, among my own family.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 3:28 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 11-25-2012 4:03 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 25 of 103 (681410)
11-25-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
11-25-2012 3:29 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
Actually I would be pretty upset if GDR's religious ideas were taught in science classes.
The reason for caring more about "Biblie-based Creationists" - and you've got to be including the ID crowd here, for all their denials - is less what they believe and more their aggressive approach and continual attempts to get their religion into science lessons where it doesn't belong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:50 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 103 (681411)
11-25-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
11-25-2012 3:45 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
Does GDR actually have THAT coherent a creationism, OR any desire to get his ideas taught in schools? If so I've apparently missed a lot of his writings.
Yes, there's the teaching in schools issue, but I had in mind just the level of animosity that gets generated in discussions about these things. Am I wrong about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2012 3:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2012 4:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 52 by nwr, posted 11-25-2012 5:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 27 of 103 (681414)
11-25-2012 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
11-25-2012 3:50 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
quote:
Does GDR actually have THAT coherent a creationism, OR any desire to get his ideas taught in schools? If so I've apparently missed a lot of his writings.
I don't think that either matter to my point, which is that my reaction has more to do with the actions of the creationists than the content of their beliefs.
quote:
Yes, there's the teaching in schools issue, but I had in mind just the level of animosity that gets generated in discussions about these things. Am I wrong about that?
Faith, I've criticised some of GDR's ideas quite heavily. And I have to say that a lot of the "animosity" coming your way is driven by your own attitude and behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 5:15 PM PaulK has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 103 (681415)
11-25-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
11-25-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
I reject Westboro completely.
They are disgusting, no doubt. But is their theology flawed? The Bible tells us a member of the LGB community should be killed. Obviously that is a morally reprehensible position but what is the theological logic to ignore that statute, like many people who purport to be Christian do?
This is the case in the UK where the nasty bits of the Bible are ignored to get 'bums on pews'.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 4:19 PM Larni has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 29 of 103 (681416)
11-25-2012 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Granny Magda
11-25-2012 3:10 PM


Re: Just a little "fundamentalist" Anglophilia lamentation
Granny Magda writes:
We lost those "blessings" because the people we had robbed took back what was theirs. But yes, the British treated their subjects appallingly and paid the price for it, but by far the greater price was paid by their victims. Apparently, you see this as part of God's plan. It seems like a monstrous plan to me.
Perhaps it was monstrous in the motivations of the british rulers at the time. However, it was par for the course for europe and america during colonial times. It is just how things were done. The british rulers probably didn't feel they were doing anything monstrous either as they probably figured they we doing God's will by bringing uncivilized savages into the "civilized" world and showing them a better way to live. If britain had not colonized India, that country would still be living in the dark ages. Consider the wealth of that country today with the wealth of the country before it was colonized. Would most indians today prefer to live like they did in precolonial times with the standard of living that came with that time? I would say no. So, the process was monstrous, and the motivations were monstrous when looking through 21 century sensibilities, but the outcome was hardly monstrous when compared to life before colonization.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2012 3:10 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 11-25-2012 4:19 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 37 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2012 4:44 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 30 of 103 (681417)
11-25-2012 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
11-25-2012 3:29 PM


Re: What is a creationist?
Faith writes:
Yes, there are "theistic creationists" and Muslim creationists and probably all kinds of other creationisms as well, but surely you know that the only Creationism that anyone really cares about, the Creationism that gets everybody here all up in arms, that is the cause of all the furor, is Bible-based Creationism. Nobody in the UK or North America is going to object to your kind of creationism, GDR.
If it's important for the sake of clarity I'd be happy to try to remember to refer to myself as a Biblical Young Earth Creationist. And that's the Creationism I impute to all those I named in my first post.
It's sure great having you back Faith.
I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out what I think might have been in the minds of those who responded in the survey.
On this forum I think we understand the different nuances of creationism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 11-25-2012 3:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
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