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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(2)
Message 106 of 181 (698192)
05-03-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Taq
05-03-2013 6:55 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
So what science informed GDR that God used evolution to create humanity?

A number of them. Biology, palentology, in total I think we call it Evolutionary Science.

As I said in my message above, the science does not say anything about his god. He adds his god to the mix.

GDR has already formed his philosophy around god and that god made all things happen. What science does is inform him of the specific methods he can now say his god used to accomplish the task.

To us science discovers the models and mechanisms (descent with modification) while to GDR science discovers the models and mechanisms his god used (descent with modification). The science is the same.

Quite simple really. The one thing GDR is NOT saying is that science is proving or confirming his god. He doesn't need that. God is a foregone conclusion to him. The only question is "how'd he do it?" and science provides him with the answers.

Hey, GDR, I'm putting a lot of words in your mouth. Feel free to spit them back out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 6:55 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 05-03-2013 8:18 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 05-06-2013 9:49 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 107 of 181 (698193)
05-03-2013 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 7:32 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:

Hey, GDR, I'm putting a lot of words in your mouth. Feel free to spit them back out.

I can't thank you enough. It seemed to me that I was clear enough in saying that so I'm glad that at least somebody got it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 7:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 9:43 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 108 of 181 (698194)
05-03-2013 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straggler
05-02-2013 8:06 PM


Re: Random Incongruencies
Straggler writes:

I think we have reached a point where you need to explain in exactly what way you think your beliefs are 'congruent' with science. You seem to readily admit that your theistic beliefs are not evidenced, supported or even suggested by science. Furthermore you seem to recognise that some of your theistic beliefs are entirely inconsistent with everything we scientifically know (e.g. miracles such as the resurrection)

Hi Straggler

As usual you ask really good questions that require a lot of thought to answer. The thing is, as I have said, some of my views are highly speculative so it is difficult to provide a srtong rationale for them.

I think that I have managed to drag your thread a long way from the OP. If it is OK with you I will put together my beliefs and reasons for them as soon as I can and put them in a new thread where I'll be really open to being shot at.

I enjoy your posts, and although I know this is a debate forum I use it as a discussion forum. I don't really care about scoring points but about learning by seeing what others have to say, by forcing me to write out my own ideas which becomes a form of self critique, and also so that I can have my own views critiqued. You seem to get that more than some others. Thanks

Greg


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 05-02-2013 8:06 PM Straggler has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 109 of 181 (698195)
05-03-2013 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by GDR
05-03-2013 8:18 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
It seemed to me that I was clear enough in saying that ...

Glad to help.

Remember where we are. In the vast majority of cases it's "science proves this in the bible" and "the bible pre-empted science here" and the like.

I think most of these folks do not know how to handle a religonist saying "reality is as reality is and ain't it grand, beautiful and wonderful ..."

It's the " ...the way god done it" part of that sentence that raises the red flag. We gotta look at you crosseyed to see if there are any hidden hooks in there.

Now the trick is to keep the grand, the awe, the miraculous wonder and incredible beauty that is the reality of this universe in your mind and lose the irrational security blanket of god done it. I can imagine it's scary but you are so close to standing with your own intellect freeing your mind of ghosts.

Push, Grasshopper! Push!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 05-03-2013 8:18 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 05-04-2013 1:03 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 110 of 181 (698199)
05-04-2013 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 9:43 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:

Now the trick is to keep the grand, the awe, the miraculous wonder and incredible beauty that is the reality of this universe in your mind

So far so good. Just wonder why you find it beautiful? If you're just a collection of random particles come together by a lot of good luck it seems to me that you would just see it as the way things are. The thing is though that it is miraculous and it is incredibly beautiful which is one of the reasons I believe as I do.

(I probably should have resisted the urge to say that and quit while I was ahead. )

AZPaul3 writes:

lose the irrational security blanket of god done it.

Darn. You started out so well. Here is another of the atheistic beliefs that I kinda reject. I believe, not because I'm looking for a security blanket but because I believe it's the truth. For that matter, if you have read some of my posts you would see that I don't believe that we are made right with God because of what we believe but because of where our heart is.

AZPaul3 writes:

I can imagine it's scary but you are so close to standing with your own intellect freeing your mind of ghosts.

Whatever intellect I have leaves me with very little doubt of the basics of what I believe. I also have no doubt that many of the non-essential things I believe are a little or maybe a whole lot off base. The two basic essentials for me are the resurrection of Jesus and the idea that God is good.

AZPaul3 writes:

Push, Grasshopper! Push!

No matter how I push it is hard to reject something that I so firmly believe to represent the truth in order to believe something that I'm firmly convinced is wrong.

Once again though, thanks for the help. You accurately presented my views and I appreciate it. It ain't always easy being a theist, let alone a Christian around here.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 9:43 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 111 of 181 (698373)
05-06-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 7:32 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
A number of them. Biology, palentology, in total I think we call it Evolutionary Science.

As I said in my message above, the science does not say anything about his god. He adds his god to the mix.

GDR has already formed his philosophy around god and that god made all things happen. What science does is inform him of the specific methods he can now say his god used to accomplish the task.

To us science discovers the models and mechanisms (descent with modification) while to GDR science discovers the models and mechanisms his god used (descent with modification). The science is the same.

Quite simple really. The one thing GDR is NOT saying is that science is proving or confirming his god. He doesn't need that. God is a foregone conclusion to him. The only question is "how'd he do it?" and science provides him with the answers.

Hey, GDR, I'm putting a lot of words in your mouth. Feel free to spit them back out.

GDR is claiming that he used science to form his beliefs. His belief is that God acted through evolution. Nowhere is there any scientific study that shows this. As you say, he takes his pre-existing belief and adds it to the science. That is not a process of using science to form beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 7:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2013 5:58 PM Taq has responded
 Message 118 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 7:57 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 112 of 181 (698403)
05-06-2013 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
05-06-2013 9:49 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR flexes both what the bible says and what science says to fit his beliefs.

He believes in a loving god so he dismisses the hard parts of both old and new testaments and focuses on the soft. He interprets each new scientific discovery as revealing how god did it rather than treat what the bible says as literal. This means that every new scientific discovery is an opportunity to wonder at the ways of the Lord.

It's pretty cool, it means than no matter what is discovered it can not contradict his beliefs and moreover, the more incredible the discovery, the more amazing it proves the Lord to be. Science therefore confirms the belief.

In the rational person, beliefs can only be broken if the belief can't flex. Faith's beliefs can't flex so her defense is to irrationally deny the science, GDR's beliefs not only flex, they accommodate science; it's far less damaging and it's pretty much how the Anglican Church and to some extent, the Catholic Church, has been able to survive.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 05-06-2013 9:49 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2013 11:41 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 05-07-2013 11:48 AM Tangle has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 113 of 181 (698478)
05-07-2013 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
05-06-2013 5:58 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
e believes in a loving god so he dismisses the hard parts of both old and new testaments

I don't think the above is completely accurate or at least it seems incomplete in a way that casts a bad light. GDR does not believe that God dictated the Bible. Thus a lot of what is written in the Bible is the interpretation of what men believed about God.

On the other hand, GDR accepts essentially everything the Gospels say that Jesus taught and did as fact. Where other parts of the Bible conflict with that, they must be wrong.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2013 5:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2013 1:21 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 114 of 181 (698479)
05-07-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
05-06-2013 5:58 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR flexes both what the bible says and what science says to fit his beliefs.
He believes in a loving god so he dismisses the hard parts of both old and new testaments and focuses on the soft. He interprets each new scientific discovery as revealing how god did it rather than treat what the bible says as literal. This means that every new scientific discovery is an opportunity to wonder at the ways of the Lord.

It's pretty cool, it means than no matter what is discovered it can not contradict his beliefs and moreover, the more incredible the discovery, the more amazing it proves the Lord to be. Science therefore confirms the belief.

In the rational person, beliefs can only be broken if the belief can't flex. Faith's beliefs can't flex so her defense is to irrationally deny the science, GDR's beliefs not only flex, they accommodate science; it's far less damaging and it's pretty much how the Anglican Church and to some extent, the Catholic Church, has been able to survive.

My real interest as it relates to this thread is the intersection of science and the supernatural. Once again, it would appear that science does not inform beliefs about the supernatural. The supernatural is still defined by our ignorance, and that definition is enforced by the claims that the supernatural can not be evidenced.

At one time in history the evidence of the supernatural was said to be all around us. The changing of the seasons, the path of the Sun in the sky, and the fermentation of grapes was all seen as the direct result of the supernatural. Over time, scientific explanations took the place of the supernatural. To protect what space the supernatural has left people will now claim that the supernatural can not be evidenced in the natural world, the exact opposite of how the supernatural used to be viewed. To paraphrase Stephen Weinberg, for those who claim there is no conflict between religion and science they may not realize how much territory religion has ceded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2013 5:58 PM Tangle has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 115 of 181 (698494)
05-07-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by NoNukes
05-07-2013 11:41 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

Thus a lot of what is written in the Bible is the interpretation of what men believed about God.

Agreed (Or at least that's also what I've taken him to believe. I'm sure he'll correct us if we're wrong.)

On the other hand, GDR accepts essentially everything the Gospels say that Jesus taught and did as fact. Where other parts of the Bible conflict with that, they must be wrong.

I don't think that can be correct, if only for the fact that there is nothing in the bible written by Jesus - it's ALL third party reporting. GDR accepts or rejects a particular verse based on his very liberal interpretation of those verses. What he calls 'putting them in context.'

This, in my view, is the best possible interpretation if you must believe in the bible at all - in that it means that you don't actually have to be a Christian to be saved, you just have to be a decent chap. But it does put him against almost all of Christian religious dogma through the ages and even today.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2013 11:41 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2013 10:01 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 116 of 181 (698539)
05-07-2013 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Tangle
05-07-2013 1:21 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
I don't think that can be correct, if only for the fact that there is nothing in the bible written by Jesus - it's ALL third party reporting.

Why would this prevent GDR from believing those third party reports are true? For example, I am sure GDR has said in the past the he believes Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels.

GDR accepts or rejects a particular verse based on his very liberal interpretation of those verses. What he calls 'putting them in context.'

I don't find GDR's interpretations of the Gospels to be liberal. Perhaps that's my own bias, but it seems to me that any 'liberalness' GDR uses is applied elsewhere in the new Testament.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2013 1:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 3:32 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 117 of 181 (698557)
05-08-2013 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by NoNukes
05-07-2013 10:01 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

Why would this prevent GDR from believing those third party reports are true? For example, I am sure GDR has said in the past the he believes Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels.

It's not his beliefs in the events in the NT that are flexible, it's his interpretation of what they mean. The particular interpretation we're discussing elsewhere is his belief that not only Christians can be saved and even atheists can get into heaven.

Perhaps that's my own bias, but it seems to me that any 'liberalness' GDR uses is applied elsewhere in the new Testament.

I suppose we might get hung up on the word 'liberal', Americans often seem to use it like a swear word. I just mean that he has pretty relaxed and compassionate views cf, say Faith's interpretation of the same words.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2013 10:01 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 05-08-2013 5:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 118 of 181 (698564)
05-08-2013 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
05-06-2013 9:49 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR is claiming that he used science to form his beliefs.

Semantics, Taq. To form vs to inform.

GDR is claiming that he uses (not past tense "used") science to "inform", not "form", his beliefs.

Science, as I understand GDR's stance, cannot "form" his beliefs which have already been established without any input, confirmation, reinforcement from science. Science simply informs, teaches, him how god done what he done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 05-06-2013 9:49 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 05-08-2013 8:48 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 119 of 181 (698574)
05-08-2013 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by AZPaul3
05-08-2013 7:57 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZ writes:

GDR is claiming that he uses (not past tense "used") science to "inform", not "form", his beliefs.

Yes - That is what he means.

But how can science inform one's belief in miracles?

Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

Furthermore (and to get vaguely back on topic) if the parallel universes suggested by theoretical physicists as being responsible for the gravitational effects attributed to dark matter are the supernatural dwelling place of God (AKA heaven) then physicists are effectively positing supernatural realms as potential answers to observable phenomena.

I understand the attempt to reconcile one's theistic beliefs with science. I just don't think it works. They are not 'congruent'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 7:57 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 11:05 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 123 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 11:11 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 120 of 181 (698663)
05-08-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
05-08-2013 3:32 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
I just mean that he has pretty relaxed and compassionate views cf, say Faith's interpretation of the same words.

I understand that you did not mean liberal as a swear word. But I don't consider Faith's beliefs to a baseline to measure whether someone's interpretation of the Bible is improper or subjective. You are using liberal in exactly the way Faith would, and I don't see how using liberal in such a way isn't a judgement on GDR's beliefs.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 3:32 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 5:27 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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