Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fundamentalism versus Critical Thinking
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 159 (485932)
10-13-2008 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by kjsimons
10-13-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
**sigh**
Why must you trot out every mythological entity in literature? I dunno...call me strange...but I always knew that Santa Claus was a myth. I could usually deduce that the others were also myths based on their lack of popularity and also their cultural relevance.
Of course, the same could be said for the christian God, and if I relied solely on literary research, I suppose I could conclude that God is mythological. There are two basic reasons why I do not.
1) I had a personal experience that I judged to be emotionally and soulfully real to me. I subsequently had other "encounters." I suppose that were I truly unbiased, critically minded, and perhaps even a bit skeptical of lack of evidence, I could disprove God....at least on that level. One thing you don't understand, however, is that I do not as easily dismiss my personal experiences just because they don't make sense from a rational perspective.
Besides, that is what faith is all about. Faith does not require evidence or else it would not be faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by kjsimons, posted 10-13-2008 10:53 AM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by kjsimons, posted 10-13-2008 11:16 AM Phat has replied
 Message 149 by Larni, posted 10-20-2008 7:50 AM Phat has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 137 of 159 (485935)
10-13-2008 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
10-13-2008 11:02 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
**sigh** Why must people keep being offended when their imaginary entity is compared to other imaginary entities?
Phat, lack of popularity and cultural relevance is not why I dismiss all those entities I mentioned, it's that they all share the same amount of evidence of existance which is not a shred, your emotional and soulful personal experience asside. If you really applied some critical thinking you would realize that god, especially any specific god that you've made up, probably doesn't exist. It's impossible to disprove god, but it's fairly easy, at least to me, to see that he probably doesn't exist. And it's not just literary research you should look into, look at scientific research as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 11:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 11:20 AM kjsimons has replied
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-20-2008 5:55 AM kjsimons has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 159 (485936)
10-13-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by kjsimons
10-13-2008 11:16 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Last I heard, science was not in the business of either proving or disproving God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by kjsimons, posted 10-13-2008 11:16 AM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by kjsimons, posted 10-13-2008 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 139 of 159 (485937)
10-13-2008 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Phat
10-13-2008 11:20 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
I didn't say it did, but it keeps reducing the number of dark places deities can hide. It may never remove them all, but at least it's making progress.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 11:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 12:07 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 159 (485938)
10-13-2008 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by kjsimons
10-13-2008 11:51 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Lets think for a minute, though. While one goal of education is to reduce superstition, mythos is thought by some to be a vital part of culture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by kjsimons, posted 10-13-2008 11:51 AM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Coyote, posted 10-13-2008 12:13 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 142 by Brian, posted 10-13-2008 1:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 141 of 159 (485939)
10-13-2008 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
10-13-2008 12:07 PM


Re: Lets Get Critical
While one goal of education is to reduce superstition, mythos is thought by some to be a vital part of culture.
Delusions are often functional. A mother's opinions about her children's beauty, intelligence, goodness, et cetera ad nauseam, keep her from drowning them at birth.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 12:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 142 of 159 (485944)
10-13-2008 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
10-13-2008 12:07 PM


Re: Lets Get Critical
mythos is thought by some to be a vital part of culture.
But only when recognised as myth.
There are often tragic consequences when myth is mistaken for reality. Just look at how many millions have been persecuted because Christians think that the resurrection myth was actually a real event.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 12:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 10-15-2008 11:49 AM Brian has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 143 of 159 (485960)
10-13-2008 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Phat
10-13-2008 10:33 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Why an atheist? Whats so hard about believing in God? (Forget about scripture)
No physical evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 10:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 10-20-2008 5:50 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 159 (486045)
10-15-2008 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Brian
10-13-2008 1:18 PM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Brian writes:
Just look at how many millions have been persecuted because Christians think that the resurrection myth was actually a real event.
I don't necessarily see a direct cause/effect relationship here. People would be persecuted regardless. Thats just how human nature ends up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Brian, posted 10-13-2008 1:18 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Granny Magda, posted 10-15-2008 12:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 145 of 159 (486048)
10-15-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
10-15-2008 11:49 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Phat writes:
Brian writes:
Just look at how many millions have been persecuted because Christians think that the resurrection myth was actually a real event.
I don't necessarily see a direct cause/effect relationship here.
With respect Phat, that may be because you are not Jewish and have never had a Christian lynch mob at your door, baying for your blood. A great many Jews through history have not been so lucky. The Christian characterisation of Jews as Christ-killers has caused a lot of blood to be spilled over the centuries. Those who seek to justify anti-Semitism with the Bible usually believe it to represent very real events. It's much harder to justify pogroms on the basis of a myth.
Phat writes:
People would be persecuted regardless. Thats just how human nature ends up.
You're probably right, but I can't help feeling that you are being defeatist here. The underlying causes of prejudice and hostility need to be confronted. Belief that the Bible myths are historical has, in this case, been a cause of anti-Semitism and to some extent still is.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 10-15-2008 11:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 10-20-2008 5:42 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 146 of 159 (486412)
10-20-2008 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Granny Magda
10-15-2008 12:11 PM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Granny Magda writes:
Belief that the Bible myths are historical has, in this case, been a cause of anti-Semitism and to some extent still is.
The fact that Jesus once lived is hardly in dispute. The belief that He rose from the dead has as much historical evidence as not. The belief that He is alive today is the basis for Christian belief.
Many of the problems in modern Christian thought stem from rigid fundamentalist beliefs and exclusivist thinking.
One example is the fact that most of the Christians at my church are, unfortunately, Republicans. I try and explain to them that were Jesus here with us today, He most likely would be much more of a socialist than a market capitalist!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Granny Magda, posted 10-15-2008 12:11 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Granny Magda, posted 10-20-2008 8:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 147 of 159 (486413)
10-20-2008 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by bluescat48
10-13-2008 9:01 PM


Re: Lets Get Critical
quote:
Why an atheist? Whats so hard about believing in God? (Forget about scripture)
bluescat48 writes:
No physical evidence.
We would hardly expect God by definition to have any sort of physical presence, aside from sending a representative in human form, and that argument is far from settled as to eyewitness accounts of past physical evidence.
Anyway, as the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous so astutely points out, Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe that there is a power greater than myself? If logic, reason, and lack of evidence prevent one from being even willing to believe...for the sake of argument, there is no way that any sort of evidence would even penetrate the skepticism filter!
One of my current favorite quotes is this one:
It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us.~P. De Vries
Edited by Phat, : fixed pesky quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by bluescat48, posted 10-13-2008 9:01 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 159 (486414)
10-20-2008 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by kjsimons
10-13-2008 11:16 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
kjsimons writes:
It's impossible to disprove god, but it's fairly easy, at least to me, to see that he probably doesn't exist. And it's not just literary research you should look into, look at scientific research as well.
Would it be fairly easy if a person has confirmation bias?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by kjsimons, posted 10-13-2008 11:16 AM kjsimons has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 149 of 159 (486415)
10-20-2008 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
10-13-2008 11:02 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
Phat writes:
I had a personal experience that I judged to be emotionally and soulfully real to me.
My bold.
There's your problem. Critically thinking your judgement is flawed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 10-13-2008 11:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 04-06-2009 6:29 AM Larni has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 150 of 159 (486416)
10-20-2008 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
10-20-2008 5:42 AM


Re: Lets Get Critical
The fact that Jesus once lived is hardly in dispute.
Except it is. The Jesus Myth Hypothesis has never been overwhelmingly popular amongst scholars, but it still has it's adherents and makes a reasonable case. The evidence for Jesus' existence is scant outside of scripture.
To me it seems that the Jesus depicted in the Bible is essentially a fictional character, even if he was based upon a real person. The New Testament is just too unbelievable and inconsistent to be believed.
The belief that He rose from the dead has as much historical evidence as not.
I'm not sure what you mean here. As far as I know, the only evidence for the resurrection is contained in the Bible.
Many of the problems in modern Christian thought stem from rigid fundamentalist beliefs and exclusivist thinking.
One example is the fact that most of the Christians at my church are, unfortunately, Republicans. I try and explain to them that were Jesus here with us today, He most likely would be much more of a socialist than a market capitalist!
Well here we are in total agreement. The blurring of the line between politics and religion in the US is quite disturbing from the perspective of a UK sceptic. The sight of a preacher bellowing "YOU BETTER VOTE FOR JESUS CHRIST!" from his pulpit is more than a little bit scary (I had no idea he was running...). From my reading of the NT, I think that Jesus would be pretty vexed with most political parties.
Mutate and Survive.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 10-20-2008 5:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 11-22-2008 8:42 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024