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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2221 of 2241 (749389)
02-04-2015 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2220 by PaulK
02-04-2015 5:46 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
I left the Calvinism discussion when it was clear everybody was distorting it. This thread is not about Calvin. But why do you keep assuming you aren't one of the Elect? There is nothing even in the craziest forms of Calvinism that I know of that gives you warrant to assume that.

I'm very sorry you can't see the specialness of Christ dying for our sins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2220 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2015 5:46 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2222 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2015 6:08 AM Faith has responded
 Message 2225 by Golffly, posted 02-04-2015 8:14 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2222 of 2241 (749390)
02-04-2015 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 2221 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:52 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
You left the Calvinism discussion because you disagreed with Calvin.

With regard to election it really doesn't matter if I am Elect or not. If the statement "Jesus died for our sins" is only true when one of the Elect is speaking to others who are all also Elect, it is not a general truth, as other Christian denominations would claim. The Elect are a small minority.

And really it's not a question of "seeing" how special the Christian"solution" to Hell is, it's a question of how to get from there to the conclusion that Christianity is likely to be true. And if that is just a subjective impression then it is not a good argument


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2221 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2223 of 2241 (749391)
02-04-2015 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2222 by PaulK
02-04-2015 6:08 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
You left the Calvinism discussion because you disagreed with Calvin.

No I disagreed with what was being said about what he meant. I left the Calvinism discussion when people were insisting he was saying things I don't believe he meant based on what I've learned over the years, but I'm not in a position to argue it so I got out of it. It's no different from disagreeing with jar who is always insisting that his reading of scripture is THE reading of scripture, allowing for no others. I'm not disagreeing with scripture, I'm disagreeing with jar but at some point there is no point in trying to argue about it. Be as sure as you like that you know what Calvin meant, the discussion is over for me.

With regard to election it really doesn't matter if I am Elect or not. If the statement "Jesus died for our sins" is only true when one of the Elect is speaking to others who are all also Elect, it is not a general truth, as other Christian denominations would claim. The Elect are a small minority.

See that's the problem with discussions about Calvinism, which I keep telling myself I'll never ever get into again and I'm sorry I did again. I've believed it because I believe it's Biblical but when others don't see it that way it only causes unnecessary problems and it's dangerous even to try to discuss it. it doesn't MATTER what Calvin said, forget Calvin.

THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW WHO ARE THE ELECT BEFORE THEY ARE SAVED. There is no way anyone could have guessed before I was saved that I could ever be saved, and looking back on it I'm truly amazed. I was about the last candidate for salvation I would have imagined. You CAN'T second-guess this stuff.

As for how many, don't assume anything about that either:

Rev 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And really it's not a question of "seeing" how special the Christian"solution" to Hell is, it's a question of how to get from there to the conclusion that Christianity is likely to be true. And if that is just a subjective impression then it is not a good argument

Really, argument and debate are NOT the way people get saved.

How do you get from here to salvation by the cross: Believe, that's all. That's what scripture says, that's what Jesus taught. "Repent and believe the gospel." All that happened to me was that I suddenly believed it. I wasn't argued into it, I simply believed it when I understood it. You have no idea how powerful belief is until you believe.

abe: Mark 9:23-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2222 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2015 6:08 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2224 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2015 8:03 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 2227 by Golffly, posted 02-04-2015 8:58 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 2229 by jar, posted 02-04-2015 10:05 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 2230 by Golffly, posted 02-04-2015 12:53 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2224 of 2241 (749397)
02-04-2015 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
There's a lot I could say, but to stick to the more relevant points.

Firstly, I don't have to second-guess who is and is not Elect. You do. If you say that Jesus died for my sins then you're saying that I am one of the Elect. I don't have to justify your statements.

And, in case you hadn't noticed this is a debate. If you're just preaching at me in the hope of convincing me to be saved, don't bother. It's hard not to respond sarcastically, but suffice to say that when I went to Church I was taught that we should be good examples, that people should wish that they could be like us. And you are a long, long way from that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Golffly
Member (Idle past 548 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2225 of 2241 (749398)
02-04-2015 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2221 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:52 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
faith writes:


I'm very sorry you can't see the specialness of Christ dying for our sins.

The issue with any religion is logic and evidence. You can't do anything about the evidence thing because there is none.
However, you can control your own logic. Are you really so deluded that you lack the ability to see anything from another perspective?

The Christ dying for sins is a caveat made up by Christianity. That religion deems it important.
If Muslims say you must accept Mohammed or go to hell. That is their caveat.
If Mormons say you have to pay your tithing to get to the highest level of the three heavens, that is their caveat.

Making up caveats and then saying that is special is not unique or evidence or even logical.
So you are completely non-special using some made up caveat by your religion.

Until some religion can prove the made up stuff is not made up. Every religion is in the same boat.
Again, again, again you are told you are not unique. Made up uniqueness is not relevant.
Your self - prescribed superiority is simply that.
Muslims think they are superior. Mormons know it.
Why do you continually offer logically absurd arguments?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2221 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2226 of 2241 (749400)
02-04-2015 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2213 by Faith
02-03-2015 10:57 PM


Re: back towards the topic
Faith writes:

Only you can't produce your Bible support without pretending mine doesn't exist, whereas I can take yours into account along with mine.

I don't doubt that for a second Faith, you like all the apologists seem to be able to make up anything.

But that does not change the point which is that the contradictions and inconsistencies and even the necessary existence of apologists and commentators provide proof that the Bible is simply the words of men.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2213 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 548 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2227 of 2241 (749403)
02-04-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
faith writes:

abe: Mark 9:23-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

You can't avoid problems. Every post is logically bunked up or bible quotes themselves are problematic. Is your god so stupid that believers must look like buffoons?

If all things are possible why can't your god prove he exists and why am I an unbeliever. All things are possible so just pray hard for me to believe. I'll let you know tomorrow how that went.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2924
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 2228 of 2241 (749404)
02-04-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2181 by Faith
02-03-2015 1:51 PM


Re: The end of all reason
Faith writes:

My effort includes a lot of study of the various false religions and cults that try to imitate Christianity, along with sermon after sermon and book after book that bring the whole thing together into a magnificent revelation of spiritual things nobody could ever imagine on their own.

But lots of people imagine something like that on their own.
Lots of people imagine something better than that on their own.

That's how we know that the Bible you're discussing is just the Words of Men. Because it's nothing more than anyone else's fantasy life that results in the same real life as any other based on the Words of Men.

There is happiness, sadness, fun, evil, frustration, hope and laughter.
On the whole, all in the same proportions as any other group of people. Even those who directly reject the Bible you discuss.

Which means that you're wrong. There may very well be something magnificent about it, but it's exactly the same magnificence that all people can get from pretty much anywhere, even themselves. Nothing unique and nothing special about the results. Simply because there's no meaningful difference that you can indicate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2181 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 1:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2231 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:10 PM Stile has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 2229 of 2241 (749413)
02-04-2015 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
Faith writes:

See that's the problem with discussions about Calvinism, which I keep telling myself I'll never ever get into again and I'm sorry I did again. I've believed it because I believe it's Biblical but when others don't see it that way it only causes unnecessary problems and it's dangerous even to try to discuss it. it doesn't MATTER what Calvin said, forget Calvin.

But all of the evidence shows that you do not believe Calvinism or what Calvin actually said just as you don't believe what the Bible actually says. You continue to provide proof that Biblical Christians believe what fallen man says and not what the Bible says.

No one questioned the fact that the vile evil God that Calvin markets can be supported Biblically, that is a given, but that is not the only god described in the Bible, Thank God. It is the very fact that the Bible is so inconsistent, has so many contradictions, that is its saving grace. Fortunately it is possible to believe the Bible and still reject the dismal, dirty, disgusting, demeaning, defiling Christianity marketed by Calvin.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 548 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2230 of 2241 (749417)
02-04-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
Rev 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Faith, for interest reasons I always find it curious the way or spin you put on things. I can't ever seem to anticipate what you might say.
What is you take on your quote 7:9. In light of 7:4.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2232 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:11 PM Golffly has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2231 of 2241 (749433)
02-04-2015 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2228 by Stile
02-04-2015 9:05 AM


Re: The end of all reason
It's like gold to brass and I can't even give it away, nobody can tell the difference, alas.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2228 by Stile, posted 02-04-2015 9:05 AM Stile has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2232 of 2241 (749434)
02-04-2015 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2230 by Golffly
02-04-2015 12:53 PM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
You come up with so much nonsense I can't keep up with you either. Why is there a problem with God's anointing a special number for special purposes as versus the enormous number of believers that are shown after that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2230 by Golffly, posted 02-04-2015 12:53 PM Golffly has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2234 by Golffly, posted 02-04-2015 6:37 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2233 of 2241 (749440)
02-04-2015 5:55 PM


Biblical Inerrancy disrespects the Bible
The Bible has contradictions. This is a fact.

You can be so blind that you cannot tell the difference between seeing the light and not seeing the light.

You can construct implausible and contrived scenarios that fit the letter of conflicting accounts

You can try to reconcile the details while ignoring the story those details are telling.

And every time you do any of those things you reject what the Bible is saying.


    
Golffly
Member (Idle past 548 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2234 of 2241 (749445)
02-04-2015 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2232 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:11 PM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
faith writes:

You come up with so much nonsense I can't keep up with you either. Why is there a problem with God's anointing a special number for special purposes as versus the enormous number of believers that are shown after that?

I come up with nonsense? :-))))
You didn't explain well enough.... for me.
I don't have an agenda to back you into a corner over on this. I am just curious about your view, and have no doubt I will disagree
But no agenda ( On this one. Sometimes I do, but not here)
So you don't have to start making excuses before hand. :-)))


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2232 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2235 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:46 PM Golffly has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2235 of 2241 (749447)
02-04-2015 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2234 by Golffly
02-04-2015 6:37 PM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
I answered you, no excuses, don't get your problem.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2234 by Golffly, posted 02-04-2015 6:37 PM Golffly has not yet responded

    
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