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Author Topic:   Possible Signature of Extraordinary Intervention
andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 16 of 46 (700509)
06-03-2013 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
06-03-2013 1:51 AM


Hi again, Paul!

I've missed your translation argument. You say the text at Gen 1 does not say anything about a planet, and i say gen ! does not say anything about a planet.
However, you say it doesn't say anything about space, but I say that the best translation for Shemayim is sky, and sky is space.
This has nothing to do with my algorithm, really, it's a note for people married to the KJV that aretz does not necessarily refer to our specific planet and that Shemayim is not Heaven as in the place we go when we die.

The Hebrew creation myth has a critical difference from the cousins from which it appears to be syncretic. Most creation myths have order being wrested from chaos and that the chaos had been around forever. The Genesis text clear has a zero point, a beginning, which includes the chaotic waters. Organization has to be added to the system to get entropy flowing.

My claim about dating on the God line is that it is a ratio scale. Most of the events have yet to have a scientific consensus. Light on day one, the first solid-ish planet on day 2 (that's early for mainstream science, but no one would be really surprised if it could be modeled or if it were determined. Either way, it's subject to falsification or confirmation in principle) first macroscopic life in the universe on day 3 (3 billion years, or parts of 2 creation days, are what we observe to be the time scale for this) our own solar system oh-so-very-close to day 4 (so close that i might argue that the creation of our solar system starts with the protoplanetay disk, putting it square in day 4) the universe achieves a metalicity sufficient for enough calcium to be around to make large fauna, which of course start i the sea, on day 5. And we show up on day 6.

About the code example, now you're just arguing to argue. It was an example. SHESHEK is a rotation code, another example I gave to justify decrypting the text. Here is how i derived it. About 20 years ago, anthropologists were moving the dating for the Great Leap Forward, and, since I always thought that so much of Genesis pointed to real events, that the dates would be in there somewhere. So the first thing I considered was that nobody really lived to be 900; the age of a man in Genesis is given as 120 (and no one then could have known that that really is an upper age limit, BTW) and so i wanted to see what happened if the ages were inverted. I didn't catch the GLF, and I set it aside for a while, then picked it up again in conjunction with something completely different. That was my first 75 KYA scale, and AFTER that, the head lice / body lice data came out dating clothing to 75 KYA. So really, my answer to you is that I was trying different things, i got a partial message that told me something no one knew that turned out to be true, then I just spun the wheels until the safe opened.

The real question I want answered is ASSUMING my Seth line dates are correct and my Genesis event to real world event mapping is reasonable, what is the probability of that happening by chance?

as for choosing the best fit, haven't you ever put a jigsaw puzzle together? The only time it comes into play in the Seth line is for clothing. And I have also have a reasonable justification: Adam and Eve made their own clothes, putting grass skirts squarely in the Adam-Seth line; God made the leather jackets, but that was after the grass skirts. Mt. Tobu, a volcano causing 300 years of global cooling, erupted shortly after the head/body lice divergence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 06-03-2013 1:51 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 17 of 46 (700511)
06-03-2013 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
06-03-2013 1:10 PM


Hi, Doc!

Your first sentence is, I guess, true.

And cutting to the end for a second, I'm sure we both would be happier if the country were knee deep in people who, for example, lobbied for putting fences around roofs so children don't fall off, making sure everyone has enough to eat, making sure everyone has access to health care, homestead protections, all the good stuff we take for granted that appears in the Bible.

But i digress. Yes, the author doesn't impart anything the reader can know for sure is true if the reader doesn't already know it. The overt message (a message being composed of a signal, noise, and a medium) in the Bible is a moral story about how it sucks not to have reliable and fair laws (ask Tamar) and how much we can accomplish if we have this. This appears, for the mist part, to be pretty much what we observe today. the medium is a poetic novel, so enthralling that it began spreading through the literate world about 2,500 years ago. As opposed to other contemporary works that had to be dug out of the sand.

So in this case, a stipulation in the text is that we in fact know right from wrong, and the text illustrates that knowledge in an aesthetically pleasing and exciting way. And then there's the noise in the signal.

The reason for this, which is really speculation on my part, is that the author wants us to figure this out and act on our understanding. Please note that this is not a pitch for any particular religion or dogma. It's about a book that provides for the right to public trial with honest judges, an attorney and bail for the defendant, who has the right to see an indictment and confront witnesses. The right a weekend. The right not to collapse in a monocrop agriculture failure.

The information that couldn't be imparted is, for example, nuclear physics and the formation of stars, or weaponizable biology.

But now that we know it, it's also nice to know there may actually be an authoritative source for being good and not blowing each other up. Or not, it's just a sub-hypothesis. But there are information barriers, presumambly without authors: speed of light, uncertainty, Godel's theorem.

Whew. I managed to get through that entire response without using the phrase Pr*me D*r%kt*ve once.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-03-2013 1:10 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 18 of 46 (700512)
06-03-2013 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
06-02-2013 12:58 PM


numerology?
I've been seeing the word "numerology" being bandied about in response to my research (if it can be called that.)

Numerology imparts meanings to numbers; lucky, happy, etc. Will someone point out where I've imparted any emotional characteristics to numbers?

There is a Hebrew numerology called Gematria (yes, Hellenized Jews named their numerology after Greek Geometry) which is really just an arrow in the quiver of Talmudic argument.

So to clear:

No one lives to be 900. The age of a man is 120. Real world events are presented alongside the birthdays of people being 900 or so. The inverse of the 900 year ages for people, 6,000 year eras, neatly matches the events to when we think they occurred, and I make statements based on that fact.

Is that numerology?


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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5928
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 19 of 46 (700513)
06-03-2013 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by andygee
06-03-2013 9:23 PM


Re: numerology?
And what is your date for the global flood?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by andygee, posted 06-03-2013 9:23 PM andygee has responded

Replies to this message:
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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 20 of 46 (700514)
06-03-2013 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
06-03-2013 1:51 PM


Re: An Analogy
well, at least I got an "ingenious" out of this tough crowd.

It's odd you should choose this analogy. My day job is investigating fraud (on a business to business level.) Philips will frequently try to defraud my office's clients by contracting under the name Vnorov. If I were to explain to my clients about what a ROT 6 code is, they would authorize a higher level of investigation, which would tie Vnorov to Philip. I would recover the money. In real life, a large recovery once hinged on my realizing that Ebbets, Polo, and Coogan LLCs were actually all part of the same sham operation. In the whole sordid deal, i was the only one consistently telling the truth.

So how does this fit into your analogy?

At no point am I saying anything in Genesis is "true." I'm just saying there are events we believe to be true and events we believe are not true, and that there are dates associated with those events that we believe are not true.

Even if my sub-hypothesis is correct, it doesn't mean that the moral quality of the Bible is true in an absolute sense, just that the Author wants us to figure out that it is. The sub-hypothesis states that the Author wants us to believe that happiness across a society varies as the log of empathy. That relation can in principle be tested, but it may not be true. For all i know, the ideal moral society is run by Actuary Kings.

My only substantive contention is that there was a someone. I came here looking for someone who could crunch the odds; in my complete work, I used the statistical case for the Higgs Boson as an example.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 21 of 46 (700515)
06-03-2013 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coyote
06-03-2013 9:39 PM


Re: numerology?
Hi Coyote --

The global flood is an event pretty much known scientifically not to have happened, so it isn't dated. Only events known to have happened (lactase persistence, for example) are dated. Some events map to real world events that did happen; Noah maps to flooding from post-glacial melt at about 9,000 BC. That's pretty much when it happened. The algorithm does not provide a date for Mt. Everest being fully submerged.


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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5928
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 22 of 46 (700516)
06-03-2013 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by andygee
06-03-2013 10:41 PM


Re: numerology?
The global flood is an event pretty much known scientifically not to have happened, so it isn't dated.

Thanks, that I can agree with.

Noah maps to flooding from post-glacial melt at about 9,000 BC. That's pretty much when it happened.

So you find that the "global" flood was actually local and post-glacial?

The algorithm does not provide a date for Mt. Everest being fully submerged.

Might I suggest that Mt. Everest was never submerged?


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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 46 (700519)
06-03-2013 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by andygee
06-03-2013 9:23 PM


Re: numerology?
From wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

quote:
Numerology is any study of the purported divine, mystical or other special relationship between a number and some coinciding observed (or perceived) events. It has many systems and traditions and beliefs. Numerology and numerological divination by systems such as isopsephy were popular among early mathematicians, such as Pythagoras, but are no longer considered part of mathematics and are regarded as pseudomathematics or pseudoscience by modern scientists.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 12960
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 24 of 46 (700524)
06-04-2013 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by andygee
06-03-2013 8:50 PM


quote:

However, you say it doesn't say anything about space, but I say that the best translation for Shemayim is sky, and sky is space.
This has nothing to do with my algorithm, really, it's a note for people married to the KJV that aretz does not necessarily refer to our specific planet and that Shemayim is not Heaven as in the place we go when we die.

Aretz does not directly refer to any planet - the visible planets would have been included as stars, with no idea that the Earth itself was a planet. Likewise the sky is seen as a solid dome holding back the waters, which is unlike our concept of space at all.

quote:

The Hebrew creation myth has a critical difference from the cousins from which it appears to be syncretic. Most creation myths have order being wrested from chaos and that the chaos had been around forever. The Genesis text clear has a zero point, a beginning, which includes the chaotic waters. Organization has to be added to the system to get entropy flowing.

I disagree. The waters clearly exist at Genesis 1:1 and there is no origin given for them

quote:

My claim about dating on the God line is that it is a ratio scale. Most of the events have yet to have a scientific consensus. Light on day one, the first solid-ish planet on day 2 (that's early for mainstream science, but no one would be really surprised if it could be modeled or if it were determined. Either way, it's subject to falsification or confirmation in principle) first macroscopic life in the universe on day 3 (3 billion years, or parts of 2 creation days, are what we observe to be the time scale for this) our own solar system oh-so-very-close to day 4 (so close that i might argue that the creation of our solar system starts with the protoplanetay disk, putting it square in day 4) the universe achieves a metalicity sufficient for enough calcium to be around to make large fauna, which of course start i the sea, on day 5. And we show up on day 6.

In other words, all the actual dates come from science and not the text, just as I said. In fact - since you don't know how much of day seven has passed from the text you must have chosen the dates of your "days" so that humans show up on day six, too.

And there are still problems with the text. The day/night cycle seems to be established on day 1 which is not possible in your scheme. Day four includes the stars outside our solar system - including many far older than the Sun. Birds show up on day four, before land life.

Even the science looks pretty dodgy. Where's this macroscopic life that shows up when the universe is only 3 billion years old ? If there was too little calcium for large land life until your day 5, what about all the invertebrates using it to make shells ?

quote:

About the code example, now you're just arguing to argue.

No, I'm asking about your methods.

quote:

It was an example. SHESHEK is a rotation code, another example I gave to justify decrypting the text.

I'm pretty sure it isn't a rotation code. All you've got is two three letter words where the second letter is doubled. To be a rotation code the letter shift would have to be constant and by my reading it isn't.

Interesting though that you claim to have done a frequency analysis but won't even say what body of text you used to perform the analysis.

quote:

out 20 years ago, anthropologists were moving the dating for the Great Leap Forward, and, since I always thought that so much of Genesis pointed to real events, that the dates would be in there somewhere.

So you start off with the assumption that Genesis points to real events.

quote:

So the first thing I considered was that nobody really lived to be 900; the age of a man in Genesis is given as 120 (and no one then could have known that that really is an upper age limit, BTW) and so i wanted to see what happened if the ages were inverted.

In fact we've discussed that verse and in context it seems to indicate the number of years before the Flood rather than natural lifespan.

quote:

hat was my first 75 KYA scale, and AFTER that, the head lice / body lice data came out dating clothing to 75 KYA. So really, my answer to you is that I was trying different things, i got a partial message that told me something no one knew that turned out to be true, then I just spun the wheels until the safe opened

In other words you chose the code to fit the data.

quote:

The real question I want answered is ASSUMING my Seth line dates are correct and my Genesis event to real world event mapping is reasonable, what is the probability of that happening by chance?

I don't think that that is a useful question. The first question is whether your method really does produce accurate results other than those that you have "fitted". So far it seems that your results are often wrong.

quote:

as for choosing the best fit, haven't you ever put a jigsaw puzzle together? The only time it comes into play in the Seth line is for clothing.

If you have pieces that don't fit then either you've made a mistake putting the puzzle together or you have pieced that don't belong. Either is a problem for you that shouldn't be swept under the carpet.

quote:

And I have also have a reasonable justification: Adam and Eve made their own clothes, putting grass skirts squarely in the Adam-Seth line; God made the leather jackets, but that was after the grass skirts. Mt. Tobu, a volcano causing 300 years of global cooling, erupted shortly after the head/body lice divergence.

I don't see any justification for ignoring a discrepancy with any of your other lines here. In fact I don't see any justification for the text supplying a date rather than a simple order of events at all. There's no time given for the period between the point where Adam and Eve made clothes of leaves and when they were given clothes made out of skin in the text.

As for the science, apparently you mean Mount Toba. Unfortunately for you the date I've seen for the divergence of head and body lice comes in before that, more than 100,000 years ago, and only indicates the first use of clothing, not a transition in the type of clothing worn.

So it seems that your initial point was chosen by misinterpreting an early estimate for the first clothing, so even that is wrong.

So, at present we see that at least some of your dates are chosen to match events (as you understand them) rather than being derived from the text. Some of the events rely on questionable interpretations of the text. Some of the dates you get are unverifiable or even wrong. This really isn't looking very impressive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by andygee, posted 06-03-2013 8:50 PM andygee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by andygee, posted 06-05-2013 7:54 PM PaulK has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 25 of 46 (700527)
06-04-2013 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by andygee
06-03-2013 10:33 PM


Re: An Analogy
well, at least I got an "ingenious" out of this tough crowd.

It's odd you should choose this analogy. My day job is investigating fraud (on a business to business level.) Philips will frequently try to defraud my office's clients by contracting under the name Vnorov. If I were to explain to my clients about what a ROT 6 code is, they would authorize a higher level of investigation, which would tie Vnorov to Philip. I would recover the money. In real life, a large recovery once hinged on my realizing that Ebbets, Polo, and Coogan LLCs were actually all part of the same sham operation. In the whole sordid deal, i was the only one consistently telling the truth.

So how does this fit into your analogy?

Well, in the analogy, the code is only discovered after it is proven that Vnorov is really Philip, and so the discovery of the code does nothing to reveal Vnorov's identity.

But that's hardly the point. The point is that Philip/Vnorov was not being honest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by andygee, posted 06-03-2013 10:33 PM andygee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by andygee, posted 06-04-2013 10:55 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 26 of 46 (700528)
06-04-2013 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by andygee
06-03-2013 9:15 PM


Yes, the author doesn't impart anything the reader can know for sure is true if the reader doesn't already know it.

Well not only that, it imparts what is not true. Not only is it insufficient to make an Old-Earther out of a Young-Earther, it is also quite sufficient to make a Young-Earther out of someone who would otherwise have been an Old-Earther or at least neutral on the issue. It cannot impart knowledge, but it can impart ignorance. This would be an "extraordinary" intervention in more senses than one.


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 Message 17 by andygee, posted 06-03-2013 9:15 PM andygee has not yet responded

  
andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 27 of 46 (700599)
06-04-2013 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Coyote
06-03-2013 10:54 PM


Re: numerology?
Just to be sure, our planet has been completely water-covered and also completely ice-covered, but IIRC that's hundreds of millions of years ago.

But that has nothing to do with the question at hand, valid dates for events known to have happened.

In my view, and my view counts for nothing, in addition to the fact that this project has nothing to do with religion, if my hypothesis is correct, it makes a distinction between Biblical Literalism and Biblical Inerrancy.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 28 of 46 (700602)
06-04-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
06-03-2013 11:31 PM


Re: numerology?
Whew, you almost had me worried there. Fortunately, no number in this project has relationship, special or otherwise, to any event. The resultant of the previous iteration, two other numbers, and a constant get fed into a function and a date pops out the other side. I prefer to think of this as a transformation, although I'm not sure it formally qualifies as a transformation. How did Lorentz know (or would have known if he hadn't died first) that his transformation was correct in the real world? Because it makes sense out of the timing of Mercury's orbit, among many other things.

Well, I'm off to visit math departments and tell them to stop looking for examples of the Fibonacci ratio in nature, because it is a single number (albeit an irrational one) and because it has a special relation to beauty, so therefore NoNukes says studying it would be numerology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2013 11:31 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 1441 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 29 of 46 (700604)
06-04-2013 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
06-04-2013 4:09 AM


Bible True or False Quiz
Please take this little quiz to help Dr. Adequate and myself understand what we each mean about honesty. All questions are true or false.

1. If you go into a room with two children and a broken vase and ask what happened, you are likely to hear one child say "she did it."

2. If you have two teenagers and ask one where the other one is, you are likely to hear "sorry, it's not my turn to babysit."

3. If you marry the boss's daughter, you are quite likely to wind up having discussions hands-on-scabbards.

4. If you are an important CEO, and your father-in-law comes from the old country to visit you at your office, you are very likely to hear about everything you're doing wrong.

5. Without antibiotics, a good way to control infectious disease is regular bathing and sanitation, quarantine of infected individuals, washing or burning of clothing in contact with infected persons.

6. Direct application of manure onto fields at harvest time results in better outcomes for fallow-field agriculture.

7. Monocrop agriculture with a central authority in charge of one or more resources frequently winds up with the peonage of the population, human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and eventually a massive collapse.

8. A weekend is a labor right.

9. a. A woman is quite fertile a week after her period, and b. a man who hasn't had an emission in about 10 days will have a pretty high sperm count when he does.

10. On a cost/benefit basis, hunting is a waste of time compared to farming.

11. if you don't raise animals that eat people food, you will never have to face the choice of feeding your family or feeding your livestock. or be hanged by the Party for feeding subsidized bread to your private pigs.


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 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-04-2013 4:09 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 1207 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 30 of 46 (700620)
06-05-2013 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by andygee
06-04-2013 10:55 PM


Re: Bible True or False Quiz
andygee writes:

All questions are true or false.


False.
None of them are questions.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

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