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Author | Topic: Semiotic argument for ID | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
NaOH + HCl = NaCl + H2O* * 2 set in subscript: 2 Hmm we have this element, we'll call it "sodium" and use "Na" as a symbol for it, another we'll call "oxygen" and use "O" ... etc and now we can write NaOH + HCl = NaCl + H2O GASP: that is obviously a coded sequence, and that means there was an original coder ... and this means the code must direct the action of the atoms to form first one set of molecules and then another: it must be ... {knees tremble} ... Otherwise know as the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Edsel, who can't be bothered to type 4 letters, let alone get three correct ... lets me abuse the coded sequence for the specific information in his name ...
I must object; that straw man was a non-sequetir. In your characterature, the fact that there was an original coder for the chemical nomenclature system, ... No no no, the naming is not the code they are just names for the atoms of the code so that we can refer to them with some semblance of intellectual comprehension (what are words and names good for anyway, just misspell it and people will understand eh? The caricature that you so aptly point out applies to your caricature of the DNA molecule ... So I am glad and relieved to see that you understand the errors of your position.
... does not mean that "The code must direct the action of the atoms". In this case, the code must direct the action of the LAB CHEMIST. No it means that the atoms naturally form these molecules, just as all molecules come together in specific patterns do the the chemical reaction patterns based on their compositions.
But what if the lab chemist was replaced by a robot, pre-programmed to read the code of the researcher and cause the specified chemical reactions? This robot, receiving, translating, and executing communicated instructions, ... The you have introduced a totally unnecessary element to a natural process that doesn't need a helping hand, haven't you? What purpose does the robot serve?
... is much like the DNA molecule. It's just a mechanistic 'robot' pre-programmed to execute received orders. And the DNA molecules act just the same with or without the unnecessarily introduced purposeless robot ... making chemical reactions by the natural process that doesn't need a helping hand, as we have just established.
The interesting question is, where did the DNA originally receive the orders from? Yep, right up there with the interesting question, where did the sodium atom originally receive the orders to combine with chlorine to make salt ... just so we could have salt on our food! Amazing isn't it. Edited by RAZD, : [..]by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Anyway, what matters is: whether evolution (methodological naturalism) can explain the first 'replicators', as you call them. The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities. Message 58: There was no gene pool back then. Can you possibly now see why evolution does not and cannot explain abiogenesis? Evolution is about change in populations of living organisms, and to study that you have to start with living organisms, you have to start with gene pools. Rather obvious eh? Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... the DNA molecule - inherently able to couple with the protein-building system, which is inherently able to produce proteins ... Can you describe a single part of this process that is not a chemical reaction bound by the rules of chemical reactions? And how this is different than the chemical reactions that make salt? by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes, I see. So could you possibly let your gang know not to assert that the first DNA/RNA EVOLVED? Curiously, I usually use the term "developed" to differentiate the chemical process from the biological evolutionary process. Of course this also gets into the question of what is necessary for life (see my response to Frako on this, Is there a legitimate argument for design?, Message 193).
[msg]: PaulK writes: quote: "That, my friend, is a statement of FAITH."-ed67 But not religious "FAITH" since it is neither certain, nor is it lacking a foundation in evidence. To pretend otherwise would be equivocation and dishonesty. So we've established that belief in abiogenesis requires faith in the unseen and unproven, j So you went with equivocation and dishonesty ...
You have confused meaning (1) -- what PaulK meant -- with meaning (2) or (4): that is equivocation, especially as he specified that it was based on evidence ... but then again I would not call it faith, myself. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Sorry to disappoint you, but invoking CSI does not obligate me to understand Dembski's math (which I don't pretend to do). I have "The Design Inference" but I can't follow the math, so I do not source it in my discussions. That is a disappointment, here I thought you were some kind of math maven because you liked it when numbers were used. Instead they seem to be some kind of "shiny object" for you: easily distracted by mathematical manipulations with mindless meanings, and unable to determine when it is just horsepucky.
"complex specified information" is a term in the English language understandable by English speakers. It means exactly what it says. It is not a mathematical term, nor does it "belong" to Dembski by virtue of his using it. Well then someone new to the debate should understand what it means then ... let's see what we can decode from the words: So we have something too complex and mysterious for the average person to understand or explain, specified by and unspecified specifier to specifically accomplish the specific task of inserting the unspecified specifier, that acts to inform someone\thing and implying a communicator and a receiver. In other words ... gigo. Words thrown together with connotations intended to imply something that isn't necessarily there, something with no metric to determine how to measure it. Pseudo-terminology: word jumbles with no real meaning for the purpose of fooling the gullible. Application to biology ... zilch?
Message 115 I can't help it if your English is 'challenged'. So you must have obviously come to the same conclusion I just did, because it's just words eh? Edited by RAZD, : clrtyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Message 151: INFORMATION: ... communication, ... who sends, who receives? what is the language used?
... factual data ... So the structure of DNA is factual data ... an bunch of molecules is factual data, just as NaCl is an bunch of elements is factual data. There is no qualitative difference in the chemical formation of either the molecules or the DNA from salts and any other chemical compounds. Adding quantity doesn't change the similarity of chemical bonds holding molecules together in set chemical patterns.
Message 152: SPECIFIC: ... having a special application, bearing, or reference; Oops that isn't "specified" ... first you want
quote: So now you have "to make mention of a special application" Or are we equivocating on meanings here already? and what is the special application? to produce proteins? or to produce salt?
COMPLEX: ... complicated or involved arrangement of ... units ... As complicated and involved as salt crystals ...
There you go, gang, all you need to admit that, by the english definitions of the terms, the DNA molecule contains COMPLEX SPECIFIED INFORMATION. But you haven't put it together into a coherent assembly ... Let me see: A "complicated or involved arrangement of ... units" ... "to make mention of a special application" ... of ... "factual data" Nope, still sounds like gibberish. It's not the terms themselves Ed67, it is the salad that is made when they are put together that is meaningless. One with a high SI (silliness index):
quote: A "complicated or involved arrangement of ... units" ... "to make mention of a special application" ... of ... "factual data"
Perhaps I need to add CSI: Convoluted Silly Insight - an observation into the innate basic silliness of a system, so convoluted that it defies rational explanation: the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, for example (not an "intelligent" design ...). Edited by RAZD, : No reason given. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... I simply mean information which is complex and specified. ... Well that is a start. Like:
Of course if the hours were sunrise to sunset it would be even more complex specified information (an increase in quantity but not quality). Note it is written in code ...
... I simply mean information which is complex and specified. ... Like the information to form complex salt crystals in specified formations. Can you please elucidate in your own words any part of DNA function or existence that does not involve chemical bonds and chemical reactions in accordance with the rules of chemistry? It appears you are having a little bit of trouble grasping this simple concept ... Can you please elucidate in your own words any specific difference in quality rather than quantity between DNA and salt molecules? Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The definitions you have offered are useless. They involve too many subjective evaluations and are not operational definitions. Two people could easily disagree whether some system possesses CSI because your definitions do not invoke objective measures. Information that is complex and specified ... ... applies to everything, from the smallest known subatomic particle to the largest black hole. Without it there would be only one uniform sameness. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
RAZD writes: Can you please elucidate in your own words any specific difference in quality rather than quantity between DNA and salt molecules? Really, you don't understand? In HIGH SCHOOL, we were taught that, in my own words, the DNA molecule has INTERCHANGEABLE PARTS (the 4 bases) within its structure. These interchangeable parts are ordered in different ways to produce different specific results. Where do you see this happening in salt crystals? In natural salt crystals there are several "interchangeable parts" -- different elements that can take their place in the crystal structure and otherwise occupy space in the crystals:
quote: Lots of interchangeable parts ... all based on basic chemical bonding ...
... the DNA molecule has INTERCHANGEABLE PARTS (the 4 bases) within its structure. These interchangeable parts are ordered in different ways to produce different specific results. This is still just chemical bonds and chemical reactions -- just a difference in quantity and not a difference in quality as I requested. Curiously I've also raised this same issue on the other thread where you keep asserting some magical difference to DNA from basic chemistry:
Message 285, copied in full for your pleasure:
quote: So I'll repeat, now that I have made my point a little clearer:
Can you please elucidate in your own words any specific difference in quality rather than quantity between DNA and salt molecules? Something that is not merely based on chemical bonding via the basic rules of chemistry? by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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