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Author Topic:   Semiotic argument for ID
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15793
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 136 of 223 (725177)
04-24-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:12 PM


Re: CS on CSI
I take it you DISAGREE that it takes intelligence to create a system that runs without intelligence?

Obviously, since it is easy to think of counterexamples. Such as a rosebush.


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11251
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 137 of 223 (725178)
04-24-2014 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:07 PM


Re: CS on CSI
What a curious remark. I was merely ceding the fact that 'CSI' now has a special meaning in common parlance, and I shouldn't use it generically any more.

And yet, you are still unable to define it. Like I said, it was a tacit admission.

CS, a little common sense would tell you that it takes intelligence to create a system that runs on its own without intelligence.

That's not true. The solar system runs on its own without intelligence and it didn't take intelligence to create it.

The same goes for the water cycle:

The laws of physics can cause systems to run on their own without any intelligence needed.

Kinda like how the laws of chemistry make DNA do its thing without the need for intelligence.


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Ed67
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 138 of 223 (725180)
04-24-2014 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2014 11:28 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
CS writes:

"complex specified information" is a term in the English language understandable by English speakers.

What makes it information? How is it specified? And at what point does it get to be considered complex?


Okay, we'll start by going to the online dictionary and looking each word up.

COMPLEX:

quote:

adjective
1.
composed of many interconnected parts; compound; composite: a complex highway system.
2.
characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts, units, etc.: complex machinery.

3.
so complicated or intricate as to be hard to understand or deal with: a complex problem.
4.
Grammar .
a.
(of a word) consisting of two parts, at least one of which is a bound form, as childish, which consists of the word child and the bound form -ish.
b.
complex sentence.
5.
Mathematics . pertaining to or using complex numbers: complex methods; complex vector space.

I would pick definition 2 for this case, what do you think?
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15793
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 139 of 223 (725181)
04-24-2014 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:25 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
But then one would have to say that DNA is not complex, just as for example a string of beads of four different colors is not complex. There may be lots of them, but they lack a "very complicated or involved arrangement of parts".
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Theodoric
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Posts: 5762
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 140 of 223 (725182)
04-24-2014 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:10 PM


Re: I agree - same old argument, different name
Specified Complexity will do

Then define it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11251
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 141 of 223 (725185)
04-24-2014 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:25 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
I would pick definition 2 for this case, what do you think?

I think defining the word "complex" doesn't tell me at what point something gets to be considered complex. I know what the word means, I'm looking for a method to identify one thing as complex and another thing as not.

But given your definition, I would say that the code you think that DNA is, isn't very complex because repeating the same four letters in different ways isn't very complicated.


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ringo
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Posts: 12922
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 142 of 223 (725187)
04-24-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:25 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Ed67 writes:

"characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts, units, etc.: complex machinery."


Which is more complex? A cell or a mountain?
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 143 of 223 (725192)
04-24-2014 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2014 3:41 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
2. SPECIFIC:
quote:
adjective
1.
having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite: to state one's specific purpose.
2.
specified, precise, or particular: a specific sum of money.
3.
peculiar or proper to somebody or something, as qualities, characteristics, effects, etc.: His specific problems got him into trouble.
4.
of a special or particular kind.
5.
concerned specifically with the item or subject named (used in combination): The Secretary addressed himself to crop-specific problems.

I'd say the first definition is appropriate, having a special APPLICATION.


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Ed67
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 144 of 223 (725193)
04-24-2014 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2014 3:41 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
3. INFORMATION:
quote:

noun
1.
knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance; news: information concerning a crime.
2.
knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data: His wealth of general information is amazing.

3.
the act or fact of informing.
4.
an office, station, service, or employee whose function is to provide information to the public: The ticket seller said to ask information for a timetable.
5.
Directory Assistance.


I'd say number 2 applies here; it's factual data, and it's communicated to the cell by the nucleotide code.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15793
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 145 of 223 (725194)
04-24-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Ed67
04-24-2014 4:20 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
A bit vague. Does a cockroach have specified complexity? Unlike DNA, it would fix your chosen definition of "complex", but what is its special application?
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15793
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 146 of 223 (725195)
04-24-2014 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Ed67
04-24-2014 4:25 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
I'd say number 2 applies here; it's factual data, and it's communicated to the cell by the nucleotide code.

Now you're really reaching.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15793
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 147 of 223 (725196)
04-24-2014 4:49 PM


CSI Redux
OK, armed with these definitions let's go back to our man in the street and ask him whether "AGTCGATGCTAGTTTGCA" is an example of complex specified information.

* Is it information? Apparently not --- what "factual data" does it contain? It is not, on the face of it, a statement of the height of Mount Rushmore or the average weight of a rabbit.

* Is it specified? Well, that depends, we now know, on whether it has a "special application". So it might be specified, if, for example, it was my email password.

* Is it complex? No, since it is not "characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts".

This is progress, of a sort, but possibly not in the direction you want to go.


  
RAZD
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Posts: 18259
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 148 of 223 (725198)
04-24-2014 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Ed67
04-24-2014 10:27 AM


complex specified information -- purpose of choosing words
Sorry to disappoint you, but invoking CSI does not obligate me to understand Dembski's math (which I don't pretend to do).

I have "The Design Inference" but I can't follow the math, so I do not source it in my discussions.

That is a disappointment, here I thought you were some kind of math maven because you liked it when numbers were used. Instead they seem to be some kind of "shiny object" for you: easily distracted by mathematical manipulations with mindless meanings, and unable to determine when it is just horsepucky.

"complex specified information" is a term in the English language understandable by English speakers. It means exactly what it says. It is not a mathematical term, nor does it "belong" to Dembski by virtue of his using it.

Well then someone new to the debate should understand what it means then ... let's see what we can decode from the words:

quote:
com•plex
[adj., v. kuhm-pleks, kom-pleks; n. kom-pleks] adjective
1. composed of many interconnected parts; compound; composite: a complex highway system.
2. characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts, units, etc.: complex machinery.
3. so complicated or intricate as to be hard to understand or deal with: a complex problem.
4. Grammar .
a. (of a word) consisting of two parts, at least one of which is a bound form, as childish, which consists of the word child and the bound form -ish.
b. complex sentence.
5. Mathematics . pertaining to or using complex numbers: complex methods; complex vector space.

ie - something so complex that the average person does not understand it nor is capable of explaining it, and does not need to (the IDologist mavens will tell you), something with an air of mystery and wonder for those who cannot understand it (so take the words of the IDologist mavens and don't question them) ...

quote:
spec•i•fy
[spes-uh-fahy] verb (used with object), spec·i·fied, spec·i·fy·ing.
1. to mention or name specifically or definitely; state in detail: He did not specify the amount needed.
2. to give a specific character to.
3. to set forth as a specification.
4. to name or state as a condition: He specified that he be given my power of attorney.
verb (used without object), spec·i·fied, spec·i·fy·ing.
5. to make a specific mention or statement.

Something specifically specified by someone (unspecified), so just using this word implies someone or something doing the specifying. It's usage here is to imply a reason and the involvement of a someone\thing.

quote:
in•for•ma•tion
[in-fer-mey-shuhn] noun
1. knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance; news: information concerning a crime.
2. knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data: His wealth of general information is amazing.
3. the act or fact of informing.
4. an office, station, service, or employee whose function is to provide information to the public: The ticket seller said to ask information for a timetable.

Someone\thing that acts to inform someone\thing, transmitted communication, knowledge. Implies someone\thing with a communicator and a receiver.

So we have something too complex and mysterious for the average person to understand or explain, specified by and unspecified specifier to specifically accomplish the specific task of inserting the unspecified specifier, that acts to inform someone\thing and implying a communicator and a receiver.

In other words ... gigo. Words thrown together with connotations intended to imply something that isn't necessarily there, something with no metric to determine how to measure it. Pseudo-terminology: word jumbles with no real meaning for the purpose of fooling the gullible.

Application to biology ... zilch?

Message 115 I can't help it if your English is 'challenged'.

So you must have obviously come to the same conclusion I just did, because it's just words eh?

Edited by RAZD, : clrty


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This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 815
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 149 of 223 (725201)
04-24-2014 5:31 PM


Ed, you might find these guys helpful http://www.deepbluedive.com

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 150 of 223 (725205)
04-24-2014 5:52 PM


Complex Specified Information

I didn't expect any of the gang to get it. This is the part that requires common sense.

Replies to this message:
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