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Author Topic:   Semiotic argument for ID
Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 151 of 223 (725207)
04-24-2014 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Ed67
04-24-2014 4:25 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
ed writes:

. INFORMATION:

2.
knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data: His wealth of general information is amazing.

quote:
James Watson and Francis Crick's insight that genetic INFORMATION is embedded in the physical structure of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA)
. http://www.evcforum.net/Messages.php

That one's a given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 4:25 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by frako, posted 04-24-2014 6:19 PM Ed67 has responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 152 of 223 (725208)
04-24-2014 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Ed67
04-24-2014 4:20 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
ed writes:

2. SPECIFIC:
quote:
adjective
1.
having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite: to state one's specific purpose.

quote:
Watson and Crick were the first to realize that the seemingly random sequence of the four bases in DNA formed a code which specified the order of the twenty amino acids that make up most proteins
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/...trieve/Narrative/SC/p-nid/153
Another given...

So so far we have the INFORMATION and SPECIFIED parts confirmed by the discoverers and researchers of the DNA code. How about COMPLEX?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 4:20 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 6:29 PM Ed67 has not yet responded
 Message 157 by Theodoric, posted 04-24-2014 6:30 PM Ed67 has responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 153 of 223 (725209)
04-24-2014 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:25 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
ed writes:

COMPLEX:

2.
characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts, units, etc.: complex machinery.


Well, DNA doesn't have machinery, per se, so that part of the definition doesn't apply.

But it DOES have a very "complicated or involved' arrangement of "units" in the nucleotide sequence, so it qualifies as COMPLEX.

There you go, gang, all you need to admit that, by the english definitions of the terms, the DNA molecule contains COMPLEX SPECIFIED INFORMATION.

Now I'll stop using the term, on DA's request.
Unless, of course, someone ELSE brings it up...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:25 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 6:31 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 159 by bluegenes, posted 04-24-2014 7:15 PM Ed67 has not yet responded
 Message 179 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 12:19 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 154 of 223 (725210)
04-24-2014 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Ed67
04-24-2014 5:52 PM


Re: Complex Specified Information
This is the part that requires common sense.

Obviously it is not common or make sense. Just because you think it means something does not make it common or mean it makes sense.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 5:52 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2694
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 155 of 223 (725211)
04-24-2014 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Ed67
04-24-2014 6:02 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Yea its the same information as a mould has, to make moulded objects.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 6:02 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:41 PM frako has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15927
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 156 of 223 (725214)
04-24-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Ed67
04-24-2014 6:07 PM


Ed's Long Hopeless Struggle With The English Language Continues
James Watson and Francis Crick's insight that genetic INFORMATION is embedded in the physical structure of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA)

That is using a different definition of information. I assumed you wanted us to use yours.

Watson and Crick were the first to realize that the seemingly random sequence of the four bases in DNA formed a code which specified the order of the twenty amino acids that make up most proteins

A sentence using the word "specified" and "DNA" in the same sentence does not bear out your point, any more than the sentence "John saw the blue flower" would substantiate a claim that John was blue, or a flower.

The "genetic code" does indeed specify which DNA codons cause which amino acids to be added to the chain. This has nothing to do with the question of whether (for example) my DNA is specified according to your definition of "specified" or indeed any other.

You are really not good at reading things, are you?

How about COMPLEX?

That one's easy. According to your definition, DNA is definitely not complex.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 6:07 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(4)
Message 157 of 223 (725215)
04-24-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Ed67
04-24-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Woooo,
Two of the three words were used by the author of the piece. That must mean, must mean...absofuckinglutely nothing.

Do you really think Watson and Crick would support CSI?

Watson is still alive. Why don't you ask him?

Before you embarrass yourself more.

quote:
"The easiest way to believe in the theory of intelligent design is to never go to school," he said.

Source

Oh yeah.
Still waiting for you to define CSI. Not define each individual word because that's...well...stupid.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 6:07 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:53 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15927
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 158 of 223 (725216)
04-24-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Ed67
04-24-2014 6:14 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
But it DOES have a very "complicated or involved' arrangement of "units" in the nucleotide sequence

No it doesn't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 6:14 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:45 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
bluegenes
Member
Posts: 3084
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 159 of 223 (725219)
04-24-2014 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Ed67
04-24-2014 6:14 PM


Who designed English?
Ed67 writes:

There you go, gang, all you need to admit that, by the english definitions of the terms, the DNA molecule contains COMPLEX SPECIFIED INFORMATION.

Speaking of the English language, which is semiotic, and which I'm sure you would say contains or expresses plenty of CSI, it's a good example of a semiotic system which, while a tool for intelligent creatures, wasn't actually intelligently designed. Unlike the intelligently designed Morse code, it's an ever evolving accident of history.

If you disagree, you might tell me who intelligently designed it, and when.

The biosphere is full of communication systems that could be described as semiotic, both intra species and inter species, and involving plants and bacteria as well as animals, but it is extremely rare for the senders and receivers of all these signalling systems to actually intelligently design them from scratch as we do with examples like semaphore and Esperanto.

Careful observation wouldn't lead us to associate complex communication systems with intelligent design. The I.D. inference is a subjective human mistake.

BTW, has it occurred to you that, if you infer intelligent design for the simplest organism, you would need to propose a designer who contains less "CSI" than that organism, otherwise consistency would require that you infer that the designer was itself designed.

Also, if you believe in a designer who designed our world, in arguing against abiogenesis you are implying that the designer designed a sterile physical world, rather than one truly "fine tuned" for life.

Many in the I.D. movement make fine tuning arguments while also making non-fine tuning arguments, without seeming to realise it.

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 6:14 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 160 of 223 (725222)
04-24-2014 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by frako
04-24-2014 6:19 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
frako writes:

Yea its the same information as a mould has, to make moulded objects.

Yes, and the information in the mould was put there by an intelligent designer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by frako, posted 04-24-2014 6:19 PM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 9:42 PM Ed67 has not yet responded
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 161 of 223 (725223)
04-24-2014 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
DA writes:

But it DOES have a very "complicated or involved' arrangement of "units" in the nucleotide sequence

No it doesn't.

Go back to high school. This is REALLY basic stuff
This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 6:31 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 9:09 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 162 of 223 (725224)
04-24-2014 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Theodoric
04-24-2014 6:30 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Theo writes:

Woooo,
Two of the three words were used by the author of the piece. That must mean, must mean...absofuckinglutely nothing.
Do you really think Watson and Crick would support CSI?

Watson is still alive. Why don't you ask him?

Before you embarrass yourself more.

quote:
"The easiest way to believe in the theory of intelligent design is to never go to school," he said.

sore loser


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Theodoric, posted 04-24-2014 6:30 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by subbie, posted 04-24-2014 8:06 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 172 by Theodoric, posted 04-24-2014 11:31 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 163 of 223 (725225)
04-24-2014 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Ed67
04-24-2014 7:53 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Can you explain why you see something in DNA that James Watson doesn't?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:53 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 8:35 PM subbie has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 164 of 223 (725227)
04-24-2014 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by subbie
04-24-2014 8:06 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
subbie writes:

Can you explain why you see something in DNA that James Watson doesn't?

Can you explain why you can't see what Watson and Crick saw?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by subbie, posted 04-24-2014 8:06 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by subbie, posted 04-24-2014 8:53 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 115 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 165 of 223 (725229)
04-24-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Ed67
04-24-2014 8:35 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
subbie writes:

Can you explain why you see something in DNA that James Watson doesn't?

Ed67 writes:

Can you explain why you can't see what Watson and Crick saw?

That sounds like a no to my question.

I assume your cryptic question back to me is meant to imply that Watson and Crick's statement somehow supports your position. Since Watson has explicitly said that only the uneducated could believe in intelligent design, I don't think you can claim any support from that source.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 8:35 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
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