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Author Topic:   Semiotic argument for ID
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 166 of 223 (725230)
04-24-2014 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Ed67
04-24-2014 7:45 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Go back to high school. This is REALLY basic stuff

You're not going to try to defend your claim? That's OK by me, I sha'n't press you for an actual signed notarized confession that you were talking bullshit. This will suffice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:45 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 167 of 223 (725233)
04-24-2014 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Ed67
04-24-2014 7:41 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
Or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:41 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 830 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 168 of 223 (725234)
04-24-2014 11:11 PM


The plain truth about the function of DNA
Since it appears many of you missed high school biology class, here is another summary of the function of DNA:
quote:
The information in DNA is stored as a code made up of four chemical bases: adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T). Human DNA consists of about 3 billion bases, and more than 99 percent of those bases are the same in all people. The order, or sequence, of these bases determines the information available for building and maintaining an organism, similar to the way in which letters of the alphabet appear in a certain order to form words and sentences.
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/basics/dna

-notice how even the URL calls it BASICS.

So it's common knowledge among the scientifically literate that DNA is the medium through which a COMPLEX, SPECIFIED CODE conveys the instructions necessary to build and maintain an organism.


Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:16 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 174 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 11:42 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 175 by JonF, posted 04-25-2014 8:10 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 830 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 169 of 223 (725235)
04-24-2014 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:11 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
quote:
DNA's code is written in only four 'letters', called A, C, T and G. The meaning of this code lies in the sequence of the letters A, T, C and G in the same way that the meaning of a word lies in the sequence of alphabet letters. Your cells read the DNA sequence to make chemicals that your body needs to survive.
http://www.yourgenome.org/dgg/general/code/code_1.shtml

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:11 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:20 PM Ed67 has responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 830 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 170 of 223 (725236)
04-24-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:16 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
quote:
Since the genetic code was deciphered in the 1960s, scientists have assumed that it was used exclusively to write information about proteins. UW scientists were stunned to discover that genomes use the genetic code to write two separate languages. One describes how proteins are made, and the other instructs the cell on how genes are controlled. One language is written on top of the other, which is why the second language remained hidden for so long.
http://www.washington.edu/...-double-meaning-in-genetic-code
I think that qualifies as complex specified information.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:16 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:31 PM Ed67 has not yet responded
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 830 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 171 of 223 (725237)
04-24-2014 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:20 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
quote:
The genetic code by which DNA stores the genetic information consists of "codons" of three nucleotides. The functional segments of DNA which code for the transfer of genetic information are called genes. With four possible bases, the three nucleotides can give 43 = 64 different possibilities, and these combinations are used to specify the 20 different amino acids used by living organisms.

The ribonucleic acid (RNA) that is directly involved in the transcription of the pattern of bases from the DNA to provide a blueprint for the construction of proteins is called messenger RNA or typically mRNA. The pattern for protein synthesis is then read and translated into the language of amino acids for protein construction with the help of transfer RNA or tRNA.


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/...organic/gencode.html

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 172 of 223 (725238)
04-24-2014 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Ed67
04-24-2014 7:53 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
So you got nothing.

Typical.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:53 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 173 of 223 (725240)
04-24-2014 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:20 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
I think that qualifies as complex specified information.

Now if only you could define the term in such a way that this claim was both true and meaningful ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:20 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 174 of 223 (725241)
04-24-2014 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:11 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
So it's common knowledge among the scientifically literate that DNA is the medium through which a COMPLEX, SPECIFIED CODE conveys the instructions necessary to build and maintain an organism.

Though curiously enough the people you're quoting didn't actually use the phrase you've put in capitals, nor indeed two out of the three words in it. Perhaps they're not as "scientifically literate" as you ... or perhaps vice versa. Who can say?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:11 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Ed67, posted 04-25-2014 8:13 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3901
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 175 of 223 (725265)
04-25-2014 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:11 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
So it's common knowledge among the scientifically literate that DNA is the medium through which a COMPLEX, SPECIFIED CODE conveys the instructions necessary to build and maintain an organism.

No, it's common knowledge among the scientifically literate that DNA is the medium that stores the information necessary to build an organism.

You have not demonstrated that this information is a code by any definition of a code (imprecise use of the word "code" doesn't count), or that it's specified or that it's complex.

Even if it is CSI, which you are obviously unable to argue for, nobody (especially you) has established that it is necessary or even reasonable that intelligence is required to create it. Note the many counterexamples that you have ignored.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:11 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 830 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 176 of 223 (725266)
04-25-2014 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 11:42 PM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
please see Message 170
This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 11:42 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by JonF, posted 04-25-2014 8:26 AM Ed67 has not yet responded
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3901
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 177 of 223 (725268)
04-25-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Ed67
04-25-2014 8:13 AM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
please see Message 170

Nobody cares about what you think is CSI. What counts is what you can demonstrate to be CSI, using an operational definition of CSI.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Ed67, posted 04-25-2014 8:13 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 178 of 223 (725277)
04-25-2014 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Ed67
04-25-2014 8:13 AM


Re: The plain truth about the function of DNA
please see Message 170

I have seen it. It remains true that the people you quote in #168 didn't actually use the phrase you've put in capitals, nor indeed two out of the three words in it. Message #170 does not even dispute this fact and has no conceivable relevance to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Ed67, posted 04-25-2014 8:13 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18868
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 179 of 223 (725289)
04-25-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Ed67
04-24-2014 6:14 PM


Convoluted Silly Insight
Message 151: INFORMATION: ... communication, ...

who sends, who receives? what is the language used?

... factual data ...

So the structure of DNA is factual data ... an bunch of molecules is factual data, just as NaCl is an bunch of elements is factual data.

There is no qualitative difference in the chemical formation of either the molecules or the DNA from salts and any other chemical compounds. Adding quantity doesn't change the similarity of chemical bonds holding molecules together in set chemical patterns.

Message 152: SPECIFIC: ... having a special application, bearing, or reference;

Oops that isn't "specified" ... first you want

quote:
verb (used without object), spec·i·fied, spec·i·fy·ing.
5. to make a specific mention or statement.

So now you have "to make mention of a special application"

Or are we equivocating on meanings here already?

and what is the special application? to produce proteins? or to produce salt?

COMPLEX: ... complicated or involved arrangement of ... units ...

As complicated and involved as salt crystals ...

There you go, gang, all you need to admit that, by the english definitions of the terms, the DNA molecule contains COMPLEX SPECIFIED INFORMATION.

But you haven't put it together into a coherent assembly ...

Let me see:

A "complicated or involved arrangement of ... units" ... "to make mention of a special application" ... of ... "factual data"

Nope, still sounds like gibberish.

It's not the terms themselves Ed67, it is the salad that is made when they are put together that is meaningless. One with a high SI (silliness index):

quote:
Silly Design Institute: Let's discuss BOTH sides of the Design Controversy...:

The Hypothesis to be tested, therefore, is that "life, the universe, and everything" show evidence of Silly Design (SD).

To accomplish this task there are several parameters that will be used to differentiate the different design possibilities. These include:

  • SI - the Silliness Index - for comparing the relative silliness of different features, the higher the SI the higher the probability of Silly Design
  • IC - Impossibility Content - a feature that is not consistent with the rest of the organism, has no discernable purpose and no possible natural need, finding an IC component would be de facto discovery of a Silly Design feature.

We expect more to be developed as the scientific effort to determine Silly Design matures.


A "complicated or involved arrangement of ... units" ... "to make mention of a special application" ... of ... "factual data"

Perhaps I need to add CSI: Convoluted Silly Insight - an observation into the innate basic silliness of a system, so convoluted that it defies rational explanation: the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, for example (not an "intelligent" design ...).

Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 6:14 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7040
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 180 of 223 (725292)
04-25-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:12 PM


Re: CS on CSI
I take it you DISAGREE that it takes intelligence to create a system that runs without intelligence?

I take it that you can't evidence your claims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:12 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
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