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Author Topic:   Treason
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 15 of 46 (701441)
06-19-2013 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
06-18-2013 2:21 PM


In a democratic society, treason could be nothing other than what it is in any society: acting against the will of the government through unlawful means.
That's a pretty damn liberal definition of treason. Were you living in Stalinist Russia, it might seem appropriate, but in most jurisdictions the word 'treason' tends to be reserved more for things like collaboration with foreign enemies in times of war, or conspiring to bring down the consitutional order. Acts undertaken against the will of the government through unlawful means are known, in technical legal parlance, as 'crimes'.

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 Message 8 by Jon, posted 06-18-2013 2:21 PM Jon has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 20 of 46 (701564)
06-21-2013 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
06-20-2013 1:29 PM


The definition of treason
Treason is doing something the government doesn't like. It originated with doing something the King didn't like, such as failing to take your hat off in his presence. Unfortunately, treason is one of the aspects of the feudal system that modern governments have decided to continue.
Nonsense. As I wrote earlier to Jon, the overwhelming majority of things you do that the government doesn't like are not treason. Treason has a a definition. The exact definition varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but it is usually restricted specifically to conspiring with foreign enemies in time of war; or conspiring to bring down the constitutional order. That's it. Anything else you do that the government doesn't like may be a crime, or it may be legal, but it's not treason.
Nor is treason a product of feudalism. The idea of treason is as old as the idea of an organised state. Thus we can read in Plutarch of the execution of Archeptolemus and Antiphon for treason by the government of Athens. This, note, was the democratic government of Athens - their treasonous offence being to launch a coup with the support of foreign agents to overthrow Athens' democracy.
It's true that in feudal times the act of merely murdering the king, or in many places other nobles, would be considered treasonous; but in modern democracies the definition is usually much more restrictive*. In the US, it's explicitly defined in the Consitution:
quote:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
The fairly vague notion of 'Aid and Comfort' does make US law a little less clear than most European jurisdictions, though.
*Although note that British law does still contain a very old-fashioned definition of treason, such that attempting to murder the king or his ministers can be considered treason. In practice, though, no one has been convicted of treason since the Second World War, and crimes that could technically be classed as treason according to statute are nowadays treated as murder or terrorism.

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 Message 18 by ringo, posted 06-20-2013 1:29 PM ringo has replied

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