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Author Topic:   Treason
Taq
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Message 4 of 46 (701400)
06-18-2013 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by xongsmith
06-18-2013 12:52 AM


What about military secrets such as troop deployments? Would it be treasonous if someone gave those secrets to an invading force resulting in the slaughter of citizens?

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Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


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Message 9 of 46 (701408)
06-18-2013 2:50 PM


It really comes down to the moral justification for keeping a secret. For example, we think doctor-patient confidentiality is important. This privacy exists so that the patient can get better. Violation of this secrecy is considered to be an immoral act, as it should be.
Secrecy in the name of covering up corruption, incompetence, or criminal activity is quite different. When someone brings these secrets to light we consider it to be a moral act.
So it is not secrets in and of themselves that are immoral or a problem for democracy. Secrecy is morally ambivalent. It is when we use secrecy as the means to an immoral end that it becomes immoral.

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 11 of 46 (701420)
06-18-2013 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by 1.61803
06-18-2013 3:16 PM


The problem with the Snowden case is that the NSA went through proper channels. They went through Senate oversight and the FISA court. What he did do is describe how legal surveillance was being carried out under the auspices of the Patriot Act. Everyone should already know what the NSA is allowed to do because the Patriot Act was passed in the light of day. No secrecy there.

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 Message 12 by Rahvin, posted 06-18-2013 7:34 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 26 of 46 (701750)
06-25-2013 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rahvin
06-18-2013 7:34 PM


For another, the legal opinions on the application of the laws that made the programs "legal" are themselves secret. Passing a law and then assuming that the law would function as intended are two different things - many laws result in unforseen consequences, including overreaching by an agency taking the law farther than Congress had intended. Normally, it would be easy for Congress to revisit the issue. But when the legal opinions defining the Executive branch's interpretation of the law are themselves secret...well, it's rather difficult for Congress to know that there is a problem.
Is Congress incapable of forming their own opinion?
As you have already shown, this is being done in the light of day. We know that the FISA courts have not turned down a single application. We know that the NSA went through all of the proper checks that it is required to go through by law. What the NSA did was entirely legal. Hell, I don't even think anyone is bringing a case before the courts to challenge these laws.
Obama keeps going back to the point that "checks and balances were in place." The point is that those checks and balances utterly failed.
Then elect representatives that will change the law. From all appearances, the checks and balances are working just as they were intended to work when they were passed. What we have is a case of buyer's regret.

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 Message 28 by Rahvin, posted 06-25-2013 5:33 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 29 of 46 (701754)
06-25-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rahvin
06-25-2013 5:33 PM


In short, if I were to attempt a description of the Legislative branch of the United States government in but a single word, I would have to go with "incompetent."
Who elected them?
Again - the issue here is not the violation of the law. Rather, it is the careful and partially (though not wholly) secret methodical circumvention of Constitutional rights (at least as the public has tended to interpret those rights such as the Right to Privacy and Free Speech) through the passing of new laws that are, by design, virtually impossible to challenge in court.
If they are violation of constitutional rights then bring it in front of the courts.

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 Message 31 by Rahvin, posted 06-25-2013 6:12 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 30 of 46 (701755)
06-25-2013 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by dronestar
06-25-2013 5:11 PM


Sorry no. The Director of National Intelligence lied to Congress about NSA surveillance. Mr. Goebbels, err, Mr. Clapper:
Then he is guilty of perjury. Doesn't change the fact that these surveillance programs do follow the laws written to govern them. What we should be focused on is finding candidates that will get rid of these laws.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


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Message 35 of 46 (701792)
06-26-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rahvin
06-25-2013 6:12 PM


An electorate devoid of better choices and faced with hopelessly gerrymandered districts such that the two "real" parties are virtually invulnerable to any upstart alternative party.
I think the Tea Party movement has shown this to be false. Movements can still happen, even within parties.
The American political machine has created an extremely effective system of self-preservation. You know this. Virtually everyone knows this, unless he or she is an utter fool. Representatives who are not Republicans or Democrats are exceptionally rare and weild effectively zero power. While the Republicans and the Democrats hold different views on such topics as "abortion" and other emotional hot-buttons to maintain the facade of "choice," on a great many important issues they completely agree. For instance, on the NSA - rare is the Democrat or the Republican politician who is actually willing to undo legislation like the USA PATRIOT Act. Most politicians from both parties refer to "whistleblowers" immediately as "traitors."
This is only because people refuse to vote for a third party. You get the government you elect.
In order to sue the NSA and challenge their warrantless collection of information or indeed any other single policy, I must first prove that I have "standing" to challenge those policies. To prove I have "Standing," I must show that I have been personally affected - for instance, I must show that I, personally, have been surveiled by the NSA.
Why can't you challenge the law on a lack of due process?
It would appear that you are oversimplifying the issues at hand in order to blame the electorate for the abuses of their elected leaders. But you and I and anyone else who is not a complete fool knows that much-vaunted democracy bears many flaws, of which these latest scandals are merely a single example.
Our democracy will always have flaws. What bothers me is that people are only now opening their eyes. We know that this has been going on since the Patriot Act gave the NSA the ability to do exactly what they have been doing. I think it is a bit self serving to feign surprise.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 37 of 46 (701806)
06-26-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rahvin
06-26-2013 12:30 PM


That's what you took away from the tea party?
Yep. Long time incumbent Republicans lost their primary races. I would say that is pretty dramatic.
It's far more complicated than that. Districts have been gerrymandered with the specific intent of maintaining current party distributions among voters. Many of the districts, if you look at them on a map, make literally no sense outside of that context.
The only way this works is if the voters are happy with the current parties, or at least apathetic.
Because since all of the evidence is secret, I cannot show that I have actually suffered the deprivation of due process.
You are saying that the process itself lacks due process, so all you need is the system itself.
Knowledge of a general and uncertain possibility is very different from specific knowledge of an ongoing certainty. This is simple human nature - some of us have been upset about the USA PATRIOT act and other laws for a while - but sometimes it takes a revelation of specifics with evidence from someone like Snowden to actually catapult the issue into the national consciousness and spark mass outrage.
But no one has been upset enough to vote for a candidate that pledges to repeal the Patriot Act, even though we knew that these types of searches and seizures would be going on.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10067
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 39 of 46 (701840)
06-26-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Rahvin
06-26-2013 4:50 PM


You're focusing on the trees. Look at the forest - nothing significantly changed.
The Republican party shifted noticeably to the hard right. I am looking at the forest.
It requires voter awareness, for one thing. One of the largest flaws of democracy is that it requires an informed electorate - if you asked 9/10ths of Americans on the street whether their district has been gerrymandered, they'd answer with variations of "what's gerrymandering?"
And you're still relying on a simplified version of the voting process. You cannot vote for a candidate based on their position on redistricting alone - you vote on a large number of positions, and redistricting is very rarely one of the hot-button voting issues. That's not even wrong, it's an inevitable consequence of voting for people rather than specific positions. It's a package deal. Find me a "perfect" candidate and I assure you I'll vote for him/her. But I can honestly say that not once can I recall a state legislator that I could choose to vote for who even mentioned redistricting in his/her campaign.
Why don't YOU run for office?
That's a nice thaught, but it has never passed the muster of a judge. I can remember not terribly long ago a lawsuit that attempted to challenge the FBI's usage of National Security Letters (authorized under the USA PATRIOT Act, these require information to be disclosed and forbids the recipient from disclosing receipt or content of the letter). The system was known, but the complainant could not prove to a judge that an NSL had actually been used against him - and so he could not prove he had standing, and the case was thrown out.
An unconstitutional system is not sufficient to sue. You have to prove that you, specifically, have been targeted by that system. Not that you may have been, or that your rights would be violated if you were a target. You have to prove that you've actually been targeted. That's impossible if the evidence you would need is classified.
So you are saying that no one has subpoena rights for these records, even FOIA rights?

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