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Author Topic:   Ruling out an expanding universe with conventional proofs
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 196 of 223 (781293)
04-03-2016 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by starlite
04-03-2016 7:20 PM


WTF?
Are you a troll?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 7:20 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 10:24 PM Theodoric has responded

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 197 of 223 (781301)
04-03-2016 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Theodoric
04-03-2016 7:49 PM


Goose and gander
Well, rude one, if you claim it is 'laziness' to claim God exists because no scientific evidence exists then where is the evidence for where the singularity that the big bang started from? How about the first lifeform, show the evidence where it was and what it was?

At least for the bible and God we have a long history of proofs and evidences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Theodoric, posted 04-03-2016 7:49 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Theodoric, posted 04-03-2016 11:16 PM starlite has responded
 Message 200 by Pressie, posted 04-04-2016 7:12 AM starlite has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 198 of 223 (781309)
04-03-2016 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by starlite
04-03-2016 10:24 PM


Re: Goose and gander
How about staying on topic.

At least for the bible and God we have a long history of proofs and evidences

If you want to present such evidence propose the topic.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 10:24 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:18 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 203 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 1:18 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 199 of 223 (781310)
04-03-2016 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Theodoric
04-03-2016 11:16 PM


Re: Goose and gander
I was addressing your comment. Try to comment on topic then.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Theodoric, posted 04-03-2016 11:16 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 04-04-2016 11:17 AM starlite has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 200 of 223 (781338)
04-04-2016 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by starlite
04-03-2016 10:24 PM


Re: Goose and gander
starlite writes:

How about the first lifeform, show the evidence where it was and what it was?

Sure.

In what is known as my country we find undeniably bacteria-like prokaryotes in the Theespruit formation of the Barberton Sequence. Around 3700 million years old. Same in some rocks in what is known as Australia today; just a little bit older forms of bacteria-like prokaryotes (around 3800 million years old). In rocks preserved in and around what is known as Greenland today, we find the fossils of older complex molecules having kids.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 10:24 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 201 of 223 (781355)
04-04-2016 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by starlite
04-03-2016 7:20 PM


Then it has to be laziness also to claim a singularity existed you know not why or how, and burped out the universe for no known reason.

The singularity is not a thing that does stuff.

Think of it like an asymptote.

Consider the plot of 1/X as X approaches zero. The closer you get to the Y-axis, the more the value of X approaches infinity.

What you're asking is like asking how the Y-axis burps out the plot of 1/X. It just doesn't make sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 7:20 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 1:24 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15915
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 202 of 223 (781359)
04-04-2016 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by starlite
04-03-2016 11:18 PM


Re: Goose and gander
starlite writes:

I was addressing your comment. Try to comment on topic then.

You didn't quote what you were responding to in Theodoric's Message 4 - was it this:

Theodoric in Message 4 writes:

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If so, that's part of Theodoric's signature - it appears at the bottom of all his posts. It's not meant to be interpreted as a comment on the topic.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:18 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 1:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 203 of 223 (781371)
04-04-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Theodoric
04-03-2016 11:16 PM


Re: Goose and gander
No need, the evidences for the spiritual and God are known. The issue is whether we deny and reject and ignore or not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Theodoric, posted 04-03-2016 11:16 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 204 of 223 (781372)
04-04-2016 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Percy
04-04-2016 11:17 AM


Re: Goose and gander
ok
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 04-04-2016 11:17 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 205 of 223 (781373)
04-04-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Pressie
04-04-2016 7:12 AM


Re: Goose and gander
Nice story. I liked the imaginary years bit especially. Now, when you show some of those little critters producing man, heck, even a bug or something...get back to us.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Pressie, posted 04-04-2016 7:12 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 206 of 223 (781374)
04-04-2016 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2016 10:19 AM


If the little hot soup did nothing, then in your mind no expansion would have happened, that is supposed to be something. Or do you admit it is really nothing!?

Why consider math that has no application or bearing on reality? If there was a teeny weeny hot soup, and soon after, the universe appeared, that seems to have to mean something happened. Not sure how mentioning y or x or some imaginary plot or line changes that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 1:45 PM starlite has responded
 Message 208 by Blue Jay, posted 04-04-2016 2:06 PM starlite has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 207 of 223 (781389)
04-04-2016 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by starlite
04-04-2016 1:24 PM


If the little hot soup did nothing,

The singularity is not a thing. It is not a thing that can do something.

This is your first misconception to get over.

then in your mind no expansion would have happened, that is supposed to be something.

I think the expansion happened, it just didn't occur from the singularity.

Or do you admit it is really nothing!?

There has never been nothing.

There has been some thing at every point in time.

There are no points in time where no things exist.

The catch is that time extends into the past direction by a finite amount. (think about how you can only go north for a finite distance)

Why consider math that has no application or bearing on reality?

Analogizing concepts can make it easier to understand them.

If there was a teeny weeny hot soup, and soon after, the universe appeared, that seems to have to mean something happened.

There is not a point in time where the universe does not exist, so there is no "after" that non-existent point from where the universe appeared. The Universe exists at all points in time.

Not sure how mentioning y or x or some imaginary plot or line changes that?

At what point does the plot of 1/X reach the Y-axis?

Hint: it never does. The y-axis is an asymptote.

Similarly, the Universe never reaches the singularity. The singularity is not a point in time where the Universe exists. It is not a thing, nor a state of the Universe, from where/when the Universe expanded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 1:24 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 228 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 208 of 223 (781406)
04-04-2016 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by starlite
04-04-2016 1:24 PM


Hi, Starlite.

Welcome to EvC!

starlite writes:

Why consider math that has no application or bearing on reality?

That's an interesting way of phrasing the question. See, the point Cat Sci was making is that the math works perfectly fine for explaining most things in the universe, but something in the formula goes to infinity when you try to apply it to the moments immediately after the Big Bang.

That's what is meant by the word 'singularity': it just describes the math returning an answer of 'undefined' in a specific situation. It isn't an event that happened or a thing that made something else happen: it's just a mathematical asymptote. And that's exactly what the Big Bang Theory predicts the math will do if you try to input time = 0.


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 1:24 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:17 PM Blue Jay has responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 209 of 223 (781418)
04-04-2016 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Blue Jay
04-04-2016 2:06 PM


If if if. Bottom line is that your line and math is imaginary and a what if. No reality to it. Now if a hot little soup that was too small at one point to see with the naked eye popped out the universe, that is doing something!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Blue Jay, posted 04-04-2016 2:06 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Blue Jay, posted 04-05-2016 2:30 AM starlite has not yet responded

    
starlite
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


(1)
Message 210 of 223 (781424)
04-04-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2016 1:45 PM


quote:
The singularity is not a thing. It is not a thing that can do something.
Let's not quibble over terms here. If all that is the universe came sailing out of that little sweet nothing I think we can refer to it as a thing. If we refer to the universe as a thing, why not!?

quote:
I think the expansion happened, it just didn't occur from the singularity.
More quibbling. If there was no singularity what would have expanded!!?

quote:
There has never been nothing.
Like you would know.

quote:
There are no points in time where no things exist.
You should get a fine each time you even use the word time. Define it?

quote:
The catch is that time extends into the past direction by a finite amount. (think about how you can only go north for a finite distance)

Obviously there was no time in the created universe before the universe existed!

quote:
Analogizing concepts can make it easier to understand them.

Easier to storytell.

quote:
There is not a point in time where the universe does not exist,

Says you who couldn't possibly know. Why even talk?

quote:
At what point does the plot of 1/X reach the Y-axis?

Hint: it never does. The y-axis is an asymptote.


Never never land then. OK. Fantasy. Speculation. Modeling based on earth time and space and etc.

quote:
Similarly, the Universe never reaches the singularity.
I'll say!!

quote:
The singularity is not a point in time where the Universe exists.
Well put!

quote:
It is not a thing, nor a state of the Universe, from where/when the Universe expanded.

So if there was no magic singularity, what could have expanded or done anything? Pretty fuzzy and funny stuff.

Edited by starlite, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 1:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 2:56 PM starlite has responded
 Message 212 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2016 4:27 PM starlite has responded

    
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