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Author Topic:   Hollow Earth Expedition?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1152 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 1 of 177 (702288)
07-02-2013 7:56 PM


Take 2
Been working like a dog on this program that I intend to publish soon before I start working on the upcoming construction project that's worth $250 million. When I work, I like to have background info noises. Sometimes, I have the radio on with the news. Sometimes, I have youtube documentaries on.

Anyway, I randomly came across the following videos so I thought it was nice to listen to them while I work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5h463_KYlg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG-6hi7wZOs

Google searched a bit and found this.

http://www.x2-radio.com/...ciencefoundation/npiee/index.html

I must say this is the first time I've ever heard anything about the "hollow earth theory" and this supposed expedition.

Ok, from the videos, the interviewee talks about the hollow earth theory and how eye witness accounts in the past have talked about openings at the poles that supposedly lead into the Earth's inner surface. He also claims that the center of gravity of the Earth isn't in the center of the Earth but rather in the crustal mass.

Since this board is filled with people of all backgrounds from honest to god scientists to honest to god cranks (been lurking for a while), I'd like your opinions on this stuff.

Here's my take. As a layman science dude (I would hardly call an engineer a scientist or anything close to it), I know next to nothing about geology. What I do know is nowadays it is very fashionable to call someone a crank just because he doesn't hold the same view as mainstream anything. That and the fact that engineers have a track record of being young earth creationists around here...

From my education, the center of gravity of a sphere is always the center, unless it is lopsided. If we have a hollow sphere, then the gravity at any point inside a hollow sphere is always zero due to the cancellation effect. Yes?

So, if the Earth is hollow, what's keeping the crust from collapsing into the void? The pressure must be enormous down there due to all the matter that is above it.

That guy kinda lost me with all the religious stuff. But I did find his ideas interesting. I'm reminded of when Copernicus proposed the heliocentric model of the universe. There were people that posed similar types of questions: If the Earth is moving, how come the winds aren't blowing everyone and everything off the surface? I can't help but wonder if everything we claim to know about the true nature of the universe is just as ignorant as the people of Copernicus' time's claim to know god's ways.

So, I thought I heard the radio interviewer mentioned a name and expanding earth theory. Searched the name Neal Adams and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ&feature=c4-ove...

In this video, the commentator talks about and illustrates the growing Earth theory. Neal Adams shows us how all the continents fit together perfectly on all sides. In other videos of the playlist, he shows us his evidence of other planetary bodies growing.

What do I think about this? I find all these ideas interesting. But I prefer to hold off my judgment. Again, I'm serious when I say I'm not qualified to say either way. That said, I can't ignore the fact that Neal Adams have illustrated that the continents fit together on all sides.

Edited.

So, I just realized that I wasn't clear on connecting the hollow earth and expanding earth theories.

Expanding earth theorists have shown that all the continents fit together on all sides. So, if the Earth grew in size, then there must be hollow spaces within the Earth. Otherwise, where would the extra matter came from?

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-02-2013 8:56 PM yenmor has responded
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 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2013 10:20 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2013 11:46 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 15 by dwise1, posted 07-04-2013 1:49 AM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 07-04-2013 11:18 AM yenmor has responded
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3819
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 2 of 177 (702289)
07-02-2013 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-02-2013 7:56 PM


Since this board is filled with people of all backgrounds from honest to god scientists to honest to god cranks (been lurking for a while), I'd like your opinions on this stuff.

...to honest to god cranks (been lurking for a while)...

Is that excerpt a confession?

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by yenmor, posted 07-02-2013 10:16 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1152 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 3 of 177 (702290)
07-02-2013 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
07-02-2013 8:56 PM


Confession of what?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-02-2013 8:56 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 07-03-2013 7:24 AM yenmor has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4 of 177 (702291)
07-03-2013 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by yenmor
07-02-2013 10:16 PM


Let me provide a little more detail.

Your thread proposal is lacking a couple things:

  1. It's not a proposal to debate anything, but just the question, "Hey, what does everybody think about this crazy idea." You need to outline a topic to debate and state your own position.

  2. You haven't provided any information about the topic, just links. This is from the Forum Guidelines:

    1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by yenmor, posted 07-02-2013 10:16 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1152 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 5 of 177 (702292)
07-03-2013 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
07-03-2013 7:24 AM


I just edited my original post. Adequate?
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 6 of 177 (702294)
07-03-2013 8:04 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Hollow Earth Expedition? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 7 of 177 (702295)
07-03-2013 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-02-2013 7:56 PM


Seismic waves
It would seem that the pattern of various seismic waves would suggest that a hollow earth is extremely unlikely.

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s8.htm

Note the illustration of S and P waves at the above website.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-02-2013 7:56 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by yenmor, posted 07-03-2013 9:30 PM Coyote has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1152 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 8 of 177 (702297)
07-03-2013 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coyote
07-03-2013 8:32 PM


Re: Seismic waves
Jan lamprecht has an explanation for that.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_tierra_hueca_9.htm

Basically speaking, he used a hollow earth model to show the same effect of the p waves.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2013 9:43 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 20 by JonF, posted 07-04-2013 8:27 AM yenmor has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 9 of 177 (702298)
07-03-2013 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by yenmor
07-03-2013 9:30 PM


Re: Seismic waves
I'm really not interested in what internet cranks have to say.

If they have the "theory-to-end-all-theories" they should submit it to peer-reviewed journals, where the real stuff hangs out.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by yenmor, posted 07-03-2013 9:30 PM yenmor has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 177 (702300)
07-03-2013 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-02-2013 7:56 PM


Re: Take 2
From my education, the center of gravity of a sphere is always the center, unless it is lopsided. If we have a hollow sphere, then the gravity at any point inside a hollow sphere is always zero due to the cancellation effect. Yes?

So, if the Earth is hollow, what's keeping the crust from collapsing into the void? The pressure must be enormous down there due to all the matter that is above it.

Yes, this is true that the force of gravity at the center of a sphere is zero, but how does the fact that there is no gravity at the center eliminate the possibility of having a void at the center? What scenario are you thinking of wherein having non-zero gravity would help support a void?

That and the fact that engineers have a track record of being young earth creationists around here...

None of the people on this site who I know to be engineers are YEC's. I am certainly not a YEC proponent.

He also claims that the center of gravity of the Earth isn't in the center of the Earth but rather in the crustal mass.

Would this make sense even if the Earth were hollow? Peter Lamont, are you out there?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-02-2013 7:56 PM yenmor has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(5)
Message 11 of 177 (702302)
07-03-2013 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-02-2013 7:56 PM


Re: Take 2
You have two major issues in this scenario:

1. The area at the north pole and surrounding ocean has been traversed literally hundreds of times since the 1950s.

I know its been a while and we know the American penchant to forget what happened last month let alone last decade but there used to be this thing called The Cold War. The (now defunct) Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) was the big enemy. This war lasted for decades.

The USSR was located right on the other side of the Arctic Ocean from Canada which put it within spitting distance of Washington DC (assuming you're spitting ICBMs) and put Moscow within spitting distance of the Dakotas where we had thousands of ICBMs of our own.

So the Soviets (as we called them way back then), and us and the Canadians and the Brits and the Norwegians would send ships, planes, submarines all over the Arctic Ocean trying to keep tabs on the listening posts, radar installations, base camps and such that we all put out there trying to get an advantage over the other guy. Hell, you could walk from Ellesmere Island to Severnaya Zemlya over all the sonobouys put out without getting your feet wet!**

And guess what? No one fell into a big deep hole in the earth and ended up inside the planet. There is no such thing. We've been there. We know … with certainty.

2. Dr. Brooks Agnew, the head of NPIEE (North Pole Inner Earth Expedition) got his degree from himself after long arduous self study in … something. He has been President of various electric car companies. The only reason it's “various” is because he keeps changing the name and the plan and the schedule and the introduction. In one nice piece of work one of his “various” companies had pictures on its website of “various” cars. Now this is the website for an electric car company, right? And they're showing pictures of cars, right? The association is clear, right? Except these cars were gas engine or diesel taken at some totally disconnected car show. They looked good, though.

He has been, and continues to be, a HAARP conspiracy nut building “replicas” of HAARP to show it's evil power. All for the money and the publicity, of course.

Now he wants $3.5 million for this expedition to prove to the world what we already know is not there.

He's a charlatan. ***

With these two items in mind I wouldn't put much stock in the efficacy of the hypothesis nor the planned expedition to prove it. Chances are that his expedition ship will fall into that big hole in the North Pole never to be seen again with the loss of all hands and the loss of all the investors' money.

What do I think about this?

It's fucking crap.

** Paraphrased from a very good movie. Name the movie and the author of the original book. For extra credit name the two stars that played the protagonists in the movie and their character's names.

***Source

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : some more stuff to fix


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Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2912
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 12 of 177 (702307)
07-04-2013 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
07-03-2013 11:46 PM


Re: Take 2
** Paraphrased from a very good movie. Name the movie and the author of the original book. For extra credit name the two stars that played the protagonists in the movie and their character's names.

"Hunt for Red October". Based on book by Tom Clancy and starring Alec Baldwin and Sean Connery.

And my prize is ... an "atta-boy!". Now I need 9 more "atta-boys" to wipe out one of the many "aw shit!"'s that I have.


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 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2013 11:46 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 177 (702308)
07-04-2013 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by dwise1
07-04-2013 1:11 AM


Re: Take 2
I guessed a different submarine movie, but I wanted to point out that you missed out on the atta-boy by not giving the character names, Marko Ramius and Jack Ryan as required, and now it's too late.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by dwise1, posted 07-04-2013 1:11 AM dwise1 has responded

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 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 5:23 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 14 of 177 (702309)
07-04-2013 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by NoNukes
07-04-2013 1:27 AM


Re: Take 2
"This business will get out of control! It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it!"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 07-04-2013 1:27 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2912
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 15 of 177 (702310)
07-04-2013 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-02-2013 7:56 PM


Re: Take 2
That and the fact that engineers have a track record of being young earth creationists around here...

Just being an engineer shouldn't predispose one to being a creationist. Though it's certainly the case that in any list of "scientists who are creationists" you will find the vast majority of them to be engineers.

I have also noticed a certain negative attitude among engineers about scientists. Engineers tend to view theory disparagingly and champion instead empirical methods deriving through direct measurement. For example, at one job (I'm a software engineer, something "real engineers" also tend to sneer at) we had to integrate a new humidity sensor into our system. From the manufacturer we had a graph that plotted ADC output (0 to 255) to relative humidity. I started working out the equations for that curve when our lead engineer, a retired EE, ordered me to just construct a lookup table. Similarly, when my linear circuits prof (I was an electronics technician and a CS major who took EE courses mostly for fun) introduced us to the delta function * he gleefully told the story of how engineers had come up with it and used it with great success for at least 100 years before the scientists could figure out that it worked.

So even though an engineer would or should have some understanding of the science behind what he's working on, most engineers can still be nearly as ignorant of science as most laymen are.

{ * FOOTNOTE:
The delta function. Basically, when you apply a force to a system over time, you can plot a curve of the function of that force and by integrating it you get the area under the curve which is the total amount of energy being applied. Now consider the curve of one unit of energy delivered as a pulse which has an amplitude and a width (delta-time); the amplitude times the delta-time equals one. Divide the delta-time in half and the amplitude doubles. Now shrink the delta-time so that it approaches zero; the limit of delta-time approaching zero would be an infinite amplitude.

In our class, this was applied to a technique called convolution, most of which I have forgotten in the intervening 35 years. But the basic idea was that we used the delta function to drive the circuit whose frequency-domain equation we had created and this showed us what its response was. Basically, we were slamming the circuit instantenously with an infinite amplitude jolt of energy and then watching how it would ring. }

This hollow earth idea has been around for over a century. I think it goes back to the late 1800's. Then in 1914, Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote the first of a series of novels set in Pellucidar, a prehistoric world on the inner surface of the hollow earth, with a small sun where the earth's core should be. It was eternal daylight there and instead of a horizon like we are used to the earth just curved up in the distance until it was lost in distant mists.

Where I work, we have an engineer, a conservative Christian BTW, who fervently believes in the hollow earth. Just smile and nod and keep your back to the wall.

Here's my take on this. We know the mass of the earth and we know the average density of the crust. Furthermore, through seismology we have a picture of the distribution of density throughout the body of the earth. Of course there's also the fact that every square centimeter of the earth has been photographed many times over, though hollow-earthers will just invoke the international conspiracy of whatever groups they want to entangle in that conspiracy (it used to be bankers and Jews, now it's scientists, atheists, world governments, etc).


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