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Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 114 (702541)
07-08-2013 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-08-2013 7:23 PM


Blues Clues
Straggler writes:
The strong implication seems to be debt always = bad. But if you look at the countries with the lowest debt they also seem to be those with the least developed industrial and economic infrastructure.
Is a certain level of debt necessary for economic and productive progress? Is this 'clock' just pursuing the fallacy of big numbers?
Or is it a fair reflection of a problem that the Western world seems unable to adequately acknowledge?
Ahh yes! That pesky debt! The conspiracy of the wealthy to transfer their private responsibility as wealthy humans into public responsibility of the willfully ignorant masses! I know the topic well.....
our very own jar used to always chant the mantra that "the bill will get paid! Which annoyed me.
The inner conspiracy theorist suggests that the global debt is sort of synonymous with a plot to harness the global collateral known as humanity and assign us all permanent debit status. We can all collectively borrow endlessly off of this "out of thin air" money virtually perpetually and eternally but we are slaves to the monopoly game we all agreed to play.
All I know is this. Personally, I am out of debt. Any bill that gets sent my way will have to be one I actually created. Otherwise it gets tossed in the trash along with all of the credit card offers.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 114 (702584)
07-09-2013 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
07-09-2013 10:37 AM


Why Must The Debt Be Repaid?
quote:
But all the debt must get repaid.
Why? Its just people owing other people. Why must it get repaid? I have known several ex-friends (and friends as well) who owed me money that they borrowed...and to date have never paid it back. Why cant this truth hold true on a macro scale?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2013 11:50 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 114 (702590)
07-10-2013 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coyote
07-09-2013 11:50 PM


Re: Why Must The Debt Be Repaid?
Coyote writes:
Are you serious?
Does the thought make you nervous? "If I don't get my dream, nobody gets their dream!"

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 114 (707302)
09-26-2013 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
07-10-2013 1:14 AM


Re: Blues Clues
AZPaul writes:
You young ones may be too young, but the rest of you should remember when Clinton did the budget surplus thing and the "peace dividend" was all the rage. One of the proposals to "spend" this windfall was to pay down the debt. Problem: the whole world's financial markets were apoplectic and shaking with fear. They were already feeling squeezed by the fact that the issuance of new bonds and notes had stopped since we didn't need to fund any more debt. The prospect of a shrinking US Treasuries market sent shocks through the whole financial world. People may think gold is the standard for asset protection, when in fact, for the major markets, funds, banks and governments the whole world over the capital preservation asset of choice is the US Government Treasury bond.
Is that true? Does the system only work by managing debt?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 114 (707303)
09-26-2013 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by frako
09-06-2013 3:09 AM


Scary
I think you are right, Frako. Lets just hope that the world doesn't push the US into a corner and reject our dollars, or we ourselves may become the evil enemy with WMD's.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 114 (707357)
09-26-2013 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-26-2013 11:46 AM


Re: Scary
My comment to frako was of course tongue-in-cheek...but Straggler does bring up a valid point...why have WMD's if not to use them...
and if the US was hypothetically pushed into a corner and dumped by the world at large, what would prevent us from imagining a threat to our survival and using WMD's to nullify that threat? (Perhaps in many ways that's why we continue to start wars and/or enlarge them....our very survival stems from a self perpetuating military industrial complex.

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 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:22 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 114 (707358)
09-26-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
09-26-2013 11:51 AM


Re: Scary
To be fair...lets keep this all in the context of the debt clock.
I am just being hypothetical in regards to ways that the US could respond to the threat of being solely held accountable for the global debt and what our hypothetical response could be.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 114 (707364)
09-26-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
09-26-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Scary
jar writes:
How do you nullify an economic threat by using WMDs?
An ignorant response would assert that no bill gets paid until the war is over...and it appears that the war is never over.
Look at how they are chomping at the bit to get involved in Syria?
We seem to not only want to be the global cop but to get paid for doing so...

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 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 114 (707368)
09-26-2013 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
09-26-2013 1:31 PM


Reality Can Be Ugly
Good point. The US would need to have at least some allies on its side. The deeper question is whether or not "they" are laughing at us now? Have we already crossed the line which we can never retreat back from? Are we gonna get solely stuck with this massive bill and, as you have asserted, will it literally set us back 50 years?
If so, this topic ties in with my "socioeconomic-at-risk-Phat topic...and I as an old codger with declining skills must decide what type of solution will I need?

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 Message 42 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:31 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 114 (707372)
09-26-2013 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
09-26-2013 1:52 PM


Re: Reality Can Be Ugly
there needs to be a differentiation between what "we" voted for in the past---out of ignorance perhaps---and the current present crop of "we"...since it appears that the bill gets larger because absolutely no one equates the future (or the past) with the present moment.
For some, the bill will get paid---someday--but that the day will never be now since nobody is prepared for that scare.
You do realize that my tongue-in-cheek pronouncements on a culture desperate enough to use WMD's has an element of truth to it---if this current population--the "we" of today--may in fact get scared enough to push the red button if doomsday ever came.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 114 (707528)
09-28-2013 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
09-27-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Reality Can Be Ugly
The word is banned only in use by jar. Most everyone else can use it.
The phrase CCoI was coined by jar a few years ago. It refers to the Biblical Creationist Fundamentalist Christians who ignore critical thinking and parrot what they are taught without wanting to think. Christian radio is usually a rich source of CCoI propaganda.
I believe a lot of what they say, and have been accused of preferring fantasy over reality. Time will tell whether or not I bet on the wrong pony.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 114 (817612)
08-18-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
07-09-2013 10:37 AM


Re: Debt can be good
Revisiting this topic, since I saw the following article in todays news:
5 Facts About The National Debt
  • As of July 31, the federal government’s total debt stands at $19.845 trillion, according to the Treasury Department’s monthly reckoning. Nearly all of it is subject to the statutory debt ceiling, which is currently set at just under $19.809 trillion. As a result, as of the end of July there was just $25 million in unused debt capacity remaining.
  • The nation’s debt is now bigger than its gross domestic product, which was an estimated $19.23 trillion in the second quarter. Debt as a share of GDP rose steeply during and after the 2008 financial crisis. Since 2013 it has equaled or exceeded GDP, which had not been seen since the end of World War II.
    You used to always talk about debt ratio to GDP.
    Is there any way this will affect our retirement?
  • Though U.S. government debt is perhaps the most widely held class of security in the world, as of the end of July 27.6% of the debt (about $5.48 trillion) is owed to another arm of the federal government itself. The single biggest creditors, in fact, are Social Security’s two trust funds, which together held more than $2.9 trillion in special non-traded Treasury securities, or 14.7% of the total debt. (Social Security revenues exceeded benefit payments for many years; the surplus was required by law to be invested in Treasuries.) Another big holder: the Federal Reserve system, which as of early August collectively held nearly $2.5 trillion worth of Treasuries, or 12.4% of the total debt. (The Fed’s holdings are included in the debt held by public category.)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  • This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 54 of 114 (818494)
    08-29-2017 5:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by jar
    09-26-2013 1:52 PM


    Re: Reality Can Be Ugly
    jar writes:
    We wanted what you call "this massive bill".
    We voted for politicians that supported starting wars, making the debt higher, not raising taxes, under funding infrastructure, removing the safety net, destroying education about responsibilities, destroying the whole concept of news and reporting, removing controls on industry ...
    We wanted this massive bill and we still want it to get even bigger.
    Donald Trump isn't helping matters any. As he himself has been bankrupt several times, perhaps he is unafraid to lead the country the same direction. Comments?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:52 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
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     Message 56 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2017 12:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 58 of 114 (818532)
    08-30-2017 2:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 57 by dwise1
    08-30-2017 1:14 AM


    Re: Debt can be good
    I did a bit of internet research...
    Did George W. Bush 'borrow' from Social Security to fund the war in Iraq and tax cuts? from a website called PolitiFact.
    They explain that it's mostly false and have a line of reasoning. The bottom line seems to be our ability to borrow, period. If we can always do it, we can keep pushing the due date forward in time.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by dwise1, posted 08-30-2017 1:14 AM dwise1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Pressie, posted 08-30-2017 7:21 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 114 (819310)
    09-09-2017 9:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Pressie
    08-30-2017 7:21 AM


    Re: Debt can be good
    Trump Says Debt Ceiling Is 'Not Necessary.' Is He Right?
    This is interesting. Trump is working with the Democrats to find a solution to the debt ceiling. I never did like Paul Ryan anyway....

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Pressie, posted 08-30-2017 7:21 AM Pressie has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by jar, posted 09-09-2017 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2017 12:39 PM Phat has not replied

      
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