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Author Topic:   Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God?
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 286 of 301 (706078)
09-05-2013 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 6:35 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:

You are not helping you argument. You acknowledge you god is limited. Limited in what he knows? Power?

So god wanted children to be raped?

That is the logical extension of your argument.

How? Is it your goal to manipulate what I've said or are you just blind? There is no extent of anything I've said that reads god wanted children to be raped or that god is limited. None at all. Please quote my post to be more accurate with your claims.


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:35 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 9:00 PM Alias has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 287 of 301 (706080)
09-05-2013 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Alias
09-05-2013 8:34 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
There is no extent of anything I've said that reads god wanted children to be raped

But that is the logical extension of your argument. If god is all knowing why did he set up something that would allow this to happen. An all knowing god would know it was going to happen. Or do you have another definition for omniscient.
If god was omnipotent he could stop it.
What is your rationale for child rape if your god is omnipotent an/or omniscient?

If god was omnipotent he could stop it.

that god is limited.

Earlier you stated this.

This is reality and in it there are limits.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 8:34 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Alias, posted 09-06-2013 12:03 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 288 of 301 (706092)
09-06-2013 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 9:00 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:


But that is the logical extension of your argument.

False. You're confused.

Theodoric writes:

If god is all knowing why did he set up something that would allow this to happen. An all knowing god would know it was going to happen. Or do you have another definition for omniscient.

Right. I presume god knew everything would happen. I also presume the reason god created it was out of love. Why else would he create it? Is it not loving to create something so that it can exist? Is it not better to exist than to never have existed at all? Is it not righteous to give something a chance to do right before you judge it and never create it at all. I would think that it would be better to create it and give it a chance to see if it would prove you wrong. All these traits are god extending its love. Hence all loving.

Theodoric writes:

What is your rationale for child rape if your god is omnipotent an/or omniscient?

God gave humanity free agency. That was a gift of its love. Then humanity turned and abused freedom and became evil, even though god urged humanity to use freedom for the sake of good. It all started in genesis 3 with the great deception by the serpent. The reason why god does not intervene immediately as far as I can tell is because of free agency and its big plan. What a trust worthy god. He will not break his own rules/plan even though its heart is broken due to all that child raping/evil caused by humanity. That trust should remind you that god will judge everyone for their deeds and it will bring justice and justification as to why it didn't deal with it immediately. Hence all knowing god all loving god all powerful god. Pretty simple.

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 9:00 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2013 8:51 AM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 289 of 301 (706094)
09-06-2013 12:22 AM


Done
I am done with this thread. We re going in circles.

Thanks
Alias :-)

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:43 AM Alias has responded

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 290 of 301 (706111)
09-06-2013 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Alias
09-05-2013 12:14 PM


Re: Loving God
Hi Alias,
I would like to hear a clarification regarding the story of Exodus. In that story Yahweh hardened the Pharaohs heart so that he could not see the fleeing Jews. If that is not meddling with free will then I donīt know what is.

Your answer about church using that kinda texts to control the people I just could not understand. It is from the Bible after all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 12:14 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Alias, posted 09-07-2013 11:56 PM saab93f has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 291 of 301 (706115)
09-06-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Alias
09-06-2013 12:03 AM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Not all only is your response stunning, but it is also chilling.

You acknowledge that god knew that child rapes would happen, but claim that is a way of god showing his life?

That you could be so cavalier about it is sad and sickening.

He will not break his own rules even though its heart is broken due to all that child raping.

This does not follow your what you said earlier. Why would his heart be breaking? He has always known it was going to happen.

The anthropomorphizing is kinda disturbing too.

That trust should remind you that god will judge everyone for their deeds and it will bring justice and justification as to why it didn't deal with it immediately.

An all knowing god would know what everyone is going to do. He knows what or deeds will be before they happened.

I presume god knew everything would happen.

Your concept of free will and an all knowing god can not be reconciled.

False. You're confused.

I do not think that I am the confused one.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Alias, posted 09-06-2013 12:03 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by NosyNed, posted 09-06-2013 9:18 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 298 by Alias, posted 09-08-2013 1:08 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8788
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 292 of 301 (706117)
09-06-2013 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Theodoric
09-06-2013 8:51 AM


Alternate Thoughts
I'm not at all sure that Alias has anything but confused unintegrated thinking going on but there is a viewpoint hidden in there that you might be missing.

Alias claims that letting bad things happen is a sign of love. You claim it is evil.

But one view is that we don't have the "big picture". We don't see the totality an the end consequences of things. When we deny a child a cookie his view is that we are very mean and cruel when we are only concerned about his health but having him see that would be very difficult with his limited knowledge and view. How much more limited is our view compared to Tom's. Maybe what you see as "evil" is part of a greater whole that produces the greatest good.

You find alias's anthropomorphizing disturbing but maybe it is you who is anthropomorphizing too much. We can't imagine what Tom's view of things is like if he is all knowing. He is not at all human or human like.

However, the problem that Alias has hidden in this view is that he can't know Tom at all. He's worshipping an entirely unknown alien creature that has a view of things utterly incomprehensible. We maybe "in his image" but we can't possibly be anything "like" him as sentient beings.

Alias maybe worshipping that is deeply evil by our standards and even the standards of it's peers. His fall back is, if not in so many words in this thread, "god is unknowable". And if you accept that then this creature could be anything at all.

Of course, the other half of Alias's thinking assume he knows god and that he is a kindly old fella somewhere- a total anthropomorphization. His views are utterly mixed up.

He isn't thinking it through and you'll never get him to.

But you aren't doing a good job of trying to peer into his thinking and sort some of it out either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2013 8:51 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:32 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2924
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 293 of 301 (706121)
09-06-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by NosyNed
09-06-2013 9:18 AM


Re: Alternate Thoughts
NosyNed writes:

But one view is that we don't have the "big picture". We don't see the totality an the end consequences of things. When we deny a child a cookie his view is that we are very mean and cruel when we are only concerned about his health but having him see that would be very difficult with his limited knowledge and view. How much more limited is our view compared to Tom's. Maybe what you see as "evil" is part of a greater whole that produces the greatest good.

This is the only way out of the problem of evil.

It hinges on a hope that "maybe God is so smart he can see that child rape is a good, loving thing in the long-run."

Of course, any sane person will laugh at this.
It is, however, the only logical way out of the issue. ****

But, as everyone knows, logical doesn't always mean valid.

If you're personally okay with calling child rape an "act of love" because of some vague hope for some unforeseen, unknowable after-death possibility... Then I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you (after I make sure you go to jail)

**** I'm not sure if "logical" is the right word here... probably something closer to "only possible way" would be more correct. "Logical", I think... gives the escape hatch too much credit.

Edited by Stile, : 'cause I wanted to add something.

Edited by Stile, : Screwed up my spelling in my last edit, and now I feel silly 'cause there'll be two edit notifications right beside each other. I don't even like one edit notification in my messages. Ah well... such is the burden I must bear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by NosyNed, posted 09-06-2013 9:18 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Alias, posted 09-07-2013 11:09 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2924
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 294 of 301 (706122)
09-06-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Alias
09-06-2013 12:22 AM


Re: Done
Alias writes:

We're going in circles.

Of course "we" are not going in circles.
But this does happen to anyone who tries to defend child rape and call it an act of love because we don't understand God's ways.
That's one of the longest rabbit holes known to man, and you've found yourself twisting down it over and over again.

It's okay, really. I don't expect you to read what's here and simply say "well, I never thought about it that way... I'll have to think this over some more." But you will, you'll remember what's been said here and it will stick in your mind and will crop up in your head whenever you think about an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God. You'll remember that there's something just not right about that, you can't put your finger on it because you don't really want to put your finger on it... you like the idea that such an all-everything being is watching over your shoulder.

That, in itself, is a good thing.
It is good to have the feeling of security that only an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God can provide.

It's just that I have problem with anyone trying to defend child rape in any way. I'm a bit fussy like that. It irks me to the point of typing out some words and posting them on a message forum on the internet.

If you'd care to continue the discussion at any time, or discuss anything else... feel free to post at any time.
This message board really is well put together and it's great for tracking discussions. There's lots of other things to talk about as well. We don't always have to chat about difficult topics like child rape.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Alias, posted 09-06-2013 12:22 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Alias, posted 09-07-2013 10:16 PM Stile has responded

    
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 295 of 301 (706204)
09-07-2013 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Stile
09-06-2013 10:43 AM


Re: Done
Stile,

Please ref post. I have edited that post.

Edited by Alias, : err


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:43 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Stile, posted 09-10-2013 6:50 PM Alias has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 296 of 301 (706205)
09-07-2013 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Stile
09-06-2013 10:32 AM


Re: Alternate Thoughts
The entirety of your post is essentially your reasoning, and those with the same perspective (looking at the facts from the same place) in order to keep your beliefs. I do understand your opinion very well, and it does make sense to me as once upon a time I was an atheist, I just disagree with you all.

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:32 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 297 of 301 (706206)
09-07-2013 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by saab93f
09-06-2013 7:52 AM


Re: Loving God
Ok. I don't think that the story is factual. It is just a story to teach people to be faithful. I also think it teaches people to fear god. Fear breeds control especially if you think this story is fact (could be I suppose depends). I'm betting this story was used to control the jewish people for centuries. However, to answer your question refer to verse 9:16.

"And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : I didn't have time to reread the whole story in my first response. I will take more time before I respond from now on. I've been editing my posts a lot because apparently I don't take the time to be clear enough and also apparently in this conversation to reread the whole story. Please keep in mind (and this may haunt me with you atheists because I know how you think as I was one once upon a time) I trust in god before I don't trust in god (or rather the thought of god) which is why I will not agree (due to my opinion and vantage) a lot of the time. Edited response. Sorry about the confusion.


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by saab93f, posted 09-06-2013 7:52 AM saab93f has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 298 of 301 (706208)
09-08-2013 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Theodoric
09-06-2013 8:51 AM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:

Not all only is your response stunning, but it is also chilling.

You acknowledge that god knew that child rapes would happen, but claim that is a way of god showing his life?

That you could be so cavalier about it is sad and sickening.

Stunning, chilling, gruesome, disturbing, cavalier, oh gosh man get over yourself. Your form of debate is rather ridicules. It does not make your argument any more logical because you use these catch phrases drawing emotion even if you actually feel that way. Moving forward. Yes if a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god exists of course it is aware of what it is doing and of the potential. What you are not understanding is much like a teenager not understanding their parents. What is logical to them is not logical to their parents almost undoubtedly. Just like what is logical to you is not logical to a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god. Just because you can't perceive how it is loving for god to NOT INTERFERE with EVIL it does not mean that god is OK with EVIL. What is happening in Syria is terrible and I am a very loving person yet I DO NOT support Obama with his plan of attacking Syria. If you are going to turn around and claim that we are ALL EVIL or all of us that don't support it are not loving you are insane. If you can't get your mind wrapped around the ideology that god has a plan and is sticking to it and that it is all powerful all loving all knowing creator god that is your issue. Sure if god was all powerful all loving all knowing it would stop what is happening in syria right? right! That is just one vantage. This particular vantage is hard to get around, no doubt. It does not change that there are other loving ways and of course better ways of looking at it probably just extremely hard to figure out as it is a terrible thing to have to figure out.

Theodoric writes:

This does not follow your what you said earlier. Why would his heart be breaking? He has always known it was going to happen.
The anthropomorphizing is kinda disturbing too.

Knowing it is going to exist, creating something, hoping that evil does not happen even if you know it will happen, it happens and your heart is broken. I've had this happen several times in my life.

Theodoric writes:

An all knowing god would know what everyone is going to do. He knows what or deeds will be before they happened.

So lets not create anything. Lets not give it a chance. Lets prejudge it. We know it wont work! Lets ride solo for eternity and not be creative. Lets not bring something into existence that could be a friend....

theodoric writes:

Your concept of free will and an all knowing god can not be reconciled.

It does not need to be reconciled. God knew. Created beings with free agency. Gods heart was broken when they became evil. Yah pretty simple ideology. If you're saying that because people know their parents are going to die and they can't be upset and heart broken when it happens you're crazy. It does not change that they could have done something to help their parents live longer and failed to do it because.....

Edited by Alias, : gotta love dem edits...

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : 1...2...3

Edited by Alias, : 4...5...6..

Edited by Alias, : 7...8....9...

Edited by Alias, : No reason given.

Edited by Alias, : ed

Edited by Alias, : Last update

Edited by Alias, : last update. (very odd I keep finding words that were written correctly written backwards such as "is heart broken" instead of "heart is broken"... Seems rather suspicious of this forum. I know I didn't make that many mistakes but I will leave it at that. This is my last and final update if there are anymore they happened after i've through everything making sure there are no issues.


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2013 8:51 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Alias
Member (Idle past 1088 days)
Posts: 95
From: USA
Joined: 06-21-2011


Message 299 of 301 (706209)
09-08-2013 1:28 AM


Absolutely done
Nosyned, great post. I do talk about god as though I know it on some levels and on other levels like I can't know what it is thinking. I guess that vantage is so insane it just can't be reconciled (cynical laugh). Perhaps we experience this as humans with people we know on some levels? Ever heard of the self disclosure models? One of them is the social penetration model and another one is the johari window. Very interesting concepts but ultimately the idea here is that there are things we share about ourselves with others, things we don't share about ourselves with others, things we don't even know about ourselves that we share with others about ourselves and things nobody knows about ourselves that are completely hidden even from ourselves. Pics below. However I am sure if god exists there are things that we just don't know about god because it is purposely not being communicated. God being all knowing clearly should not have a unknown block or a blind spot block. I hope that addresses your assertion that I am confused but also that I am not thinking this all the way through or that Theodoric will not get me to think this all the way through.. Perhaps it is you that is not thinking it all the way through. We could start a new thread discussing issues mentioned here such as evidence for abiogenesis, the nature of "god", is the god of the bible real?, atheism vs theism, etc. FYI: I am done editing my posts so if you have the time and want to reread them please check them out. They may also help spawn a new thread.

Johari Model

Social Penetration Model

Edited by Alias, : ...

Edited by Alias, : Nosyned msg!

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : I decided to post something with a little content. Perhaps it will spawn another thread.

Edited by Alias, : last time edit

Edited by Alias, : Last update.


Thanks
Alias :-)

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2924
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 300 of 301 (706394)
09-10-2013 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Alias
09-07-2013 10:16 PM


Simple
Hi Alias, glad to see you're not really done. It's an interesting topic (to me, at least) and I'm happy for the chance to talk about it.

You seem to be trying to introduce exceptions for how evil can exist and God can still be all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing.
The problem is that once anything (God included) is all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing... then there are no exceptions for how evil can exist.

You first thought maybe God had a plan according to a timeline that we do not understand.
But, if "time" is restricting God, then God is not all-powerful.

You then thought that maybe God is using evil in a loving way... in a way like a parent may teach a child.
But, "evil" cannot be used in a "loving" way. If God is using evil in any way, then God is not all-loving.

You then thought that maybe God is doing things in some mysterious way such that evil exists and God remains all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing.
But this is the entire question we're trying to answer... If evil does exist, how can an all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing God also exist?
If the answer is "God works in mysterious ways"... then the answer is equivalent to "I don't know."

I don't have an issue with you believing in an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God. That's your personal choice, and I hope you find what you're looking for.

I simply have an issue if you want to claim that you "know" or "understand" that such a God actually exists.
This seems to be impossible as you have no idea how such a God could even possibly exist while evil does exist.

Actually... it's not even really an "issue" I have as it is more a curiosity. You see... if you could actually explain such a concept to me, then I would be able to understand it. It seems to me that it would be a very nice thing to be able to understand. It's just... I'm personally unable to "just believe" in such a concept. It seems like a very important concept, so I need to understand it before I accept it as valid.

Kind of like my mortgage. My mortgage is pretty important to me. Without it my family would not have a place to live. So, I won't "just believe" that some bank will give me some mortgage at whatever rate... I need to understand the rate, and the terms and verify it myself... because it's important.

To me, the concept of a creator-God (if He exists) is much more important than even my mortgage. Therefore, I need to make sure that people's claims about Him are valid before I "just believe" in them.

I'm not trying to trip-you-up, or make you not-believe.
Please don't take offense to this... but I really don't care what you think or believe or understand as I don't really know you.
I do, however, care very much about what I think and believe and understand.

Really, my interest here is very selfish. I'm hoping you can explain this concept to me so that I can add it to my "I understand this about God" area of my brain. That area, currently, is rather empty.

You also seem to compare believers and atheists a lot.
You can call me whatever you wish, again... I don't really care.
I've called myself an atheist, a Catholic, a Christian, a believer... but I've since given up on such labels. They don't really help in my understanding of anything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Alias, posted 09-07-2013 10:16 PM Alias has not yet responded

    
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