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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 241 of 716 (788257)
07-28-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
07-28-2016 11:44 AM


Vegetarian issues nonsense?
They are super duper important when it comes to the history of the early church. And the beliefs.
Steve Mason, in his Early Christian Reader, said that the discovery of the multi volume work of Hegesippus would be more important for the knowledge of the early church than the Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi texts.
He visited every church in all the major towns in the 2nd century, and wrote a history that stretched back to the first century.
hegesippus important early history - Google Search
hegesippus james vegetarian - Google Search
This specific book below looks at the early texts that say James, Matthew, Peter, and Thomas were vegetarians. It is hostile to the idea that they were vegetarian.
Is God a Vegetarian?: Christianity, Vegetarianism, and Animal Rights - Richard Alan Young - Google Books
The Ebionite related Elkesaites existed 100 A.D. and they were vegetarian. This doesn't seem to matter to some, but it is important evidence to me.
1 Corinthians 8:10-13 and Romans 14:1-15:1 matters to me alot.
So does Acts 15-21 and the related issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:32 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 242 of 716 (788258)
07-28-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by NoNukes
07-27-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Example of b.s.
I quoted this:
"The clean/unclean system divided animals, people, and land into three categories to teach separation from the Gentiles"
The response was:
quote:
This relates to vegetarianism in what way?
People say that the ceremonial precepts involving ritual purity are the only issues relative to meat prohibitions.
Out with the ceremonial precepts, and out with any issues related to eating food being a sin.
It isn't even true that the ban on pork was ceremonial.
And it isn't true that eating pork was allowed by Jesus and James (or Paul or Peter).
This false premise has been a real discussion stopper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 8:49 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 243 of 716 (788259)
07-28-2016 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
07-27-2016 4:52 PM


Re: Temple
One could argue that the very thing that makes an enemy an enemy is the bad spirit within them. Some argue that we humans have the means and responsibility to do what is right. Others argue that the very thing that causes wars is intrinsic evil...greed...idolatry....lust....pride....etc.
By resurrecting from the dead, the Messiah conquered the enemy. It is now up to us to give Him the territory He conquered.
The enemies weren't conquered, though. The Jews were promptly conquered by the Romans. History is replete with examples of Jews suffering at the hands of their enemies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 07-27-2016 4:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:43 PM Taq has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 244 of 716 (788261)
07-28-2016 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by NoNukes
07-28-2016 5:54 AM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
quote:
Sigh. And what do you make of Jesus performing a miracle to help them catch living fish? Or can we finally admit that this last feat, performed after those folks met Jesus stomps a mud hole in your vegetarian theory.
How about a more direct indication of Jesus eating fish.
Luke 24:42-43
Here is the entire context. This is after he died and rose.
quote:
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
He was already dead, and a story arises that he ate fish. This text shows endless signs of editing. The better manuscripts don't have the honeycomb part in it, and the evidence is like 100% that part wasn't in the original c.90 AD writing of Luke. Granted the fish part is still in there. But did you read Luke 1:1-4? Luke plainly admits that he used numerous sources and that his Gospel was late. Mark shows evidence of severe editing in chapter 16 (the parallel to Luke 24). Luke stands alone in this fish part.
Endless clues of an unauthentic event with regards to the fish part.
There is another issue in Luke. People claim Jesus ate the passover Lamb. But here is the text.
quote:
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Read on and you will see that this specific text ooks like this very event was supposed to replace the Passover lamb.
And a lamb being killed wasn't mentioned here anyway.
This Passover meal is actually used by people to claim Christians should eat meat (or at least that they should be allowed to). Unreal! How full of it can you get?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2016 5:54 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 245 of 716 (788262)
07-28-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by ringo
07-27-2016 3:52 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.
ringo writes:
Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless.
Well we don't actually know whether or not anybody else understood the messianic prophesies the way Jesus did. What we do see in the Gospels are people who understood them in the way that would benefit them. So what? That seems to be a big part of human nature.
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended. Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:47 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 716 (788263)
07-28-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Vegetarian issues nonsense?
LamarkNewAge writes:
They are super duper important when it comes to the history of the early church. And the beliefs.
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:04 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:45 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 247 of 716 (788264)
07-28-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Taq
07-28-2016 12:12 PM


Re: Temple
Taq writes:
The enemies weren't conquered, though. The Jews were promptly conquered by the Romans. History is replete with examples of Jews suffering at the hands of their enemies.
But Jesus redefined the enemy with the enemy being evil itself with the ultimate evil being death. Jesus showed that being killed by the Romans was not the final answer when God resurrected Him.
Jesus said that the way to defeat the Romans, or any other embodiment of evil, is through turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, loving your enemy etc. Ultimately it is about reflecting God's love into the world so that hearts are changed and turned away from evil.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Taq, posted 07-28-2016 12:12 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Taq, posted 07-29-2016 10:21 PM GDR has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 248 of 716 (788265)
07-28-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
07-28-2016 11:44 AM


Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
Did you know that the Gospel of Thomas (logos 12) shows Jesus making James the leader of the church?
This Gospel is a very valuable source as it contains the primitive (pre Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) Logoi formt, and infact that very sayings/logoi themselves are of a more primitive text type than what is in the Synoptics and John.
This link has the saying and shows all sorts of comments by scholars on the saying.
Gospel of Thomas Saying 12 - GospelThomas.com
Here is a google link to follow the issue.
Google
Galatians 1-2 shows Paul talking about James and his importance.
Acts 15-21 is priceless.
Josephus mentions only and only 1 Christian - James!
The most important church historian was Hegesippus.
Google
"Saint Hegesippus (Ἅγιος Ἡγήσιππος) (c. 110 — c. April 7, 180 AD), was a Christian chronicler of the early Church who may have been a Jewish convert and "
Here is what he said of James.
quote:
"After the apostles, James the brother of the Lord surnamed the Just was made head of the Church at Jerusalem. Many indeed are called James. This one was holy from his mother’s womb. He drank neither wine nor strong drink, ate no flesh, never shaved or anointed himself with ointment or bathed...
The scripture says Jesus was a Nazarin , so perhaps this type of practice (among Jesus followers) came from Jesus?
I don't know but it must be considered.
This is not nonsense.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 11:38 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 249 of 716 (788266)
07-28-2016 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
07-28-2016 12:32 PM


Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
quote:
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?
Everything.
The Temple destruction and ending of sacrifices with its associated New Age of peace and no killing is very important.
Indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 250 of 716 (788267)
07-28-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by GDR
07-28-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended.
What's the difference between what people think the prophecies mean and what people think God intended?
GDR writes:
Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.
If the people who wrote the Old Testament can't be relied on to convey God's intent, how can the people who wrote the New Testament be relied on to convey Jesus' history?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by GDR, posted 08-01-2016 6:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 251 of 716 (788268)
07-28-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 12:45 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
LamarkNewAge writes:
ringo writes:
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?
Everything.
So tell us something.
LamarkNewAge writes:
The Temple destruction and ending of sacrifices with its associated New Age of peace and no killing is very important.
The "New Age of peace and no killing" has nothing to do with vegetarianism. It's only about killing people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:45 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 1:00 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 252 of 716 (788269)
07-28-2016 12:55 PM


Look at James Tabor showing a prohpecy in Dead Sea Scrolls!
TaborBlog – Page 7 – Religion Matters from the Bible to the Modern World
Wow!
This is one of the finest historians to follow on the early Church.
He knows the importance of James. (James the brother of Jesus).
He makes honest efforts.
Ironically,when I put "James vegetarian" into a search engine, James Cameron came up. Ironic because he makes an honest effort to learn about the early church (including archaeological discoveries on James the Just). That wasn't what came up in the search engine hit on him. His vegetarianism was the issue.
I wish people would spend more time listening to honest searchers of truth as opposed to dishonest folks like Darrell Bock and Paul Maier jr.

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 07-28-2016 7:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 253 of 716 (788270)
07-28-2016 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
07-28-2016 12:51 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
quote:
The "New Age of peace and no killing" has nothing to do with vegetarianism. It's only about killing people.
The Zoroastrians have texts that parallel Revelation 20.
They say that to get to the 3000 year Judgment Day, people have to first stop eating meat. Ironic because that religion allows meat to be eaten.
Hebrews 10 to 11 talk about the ending of the sacrifice after the death of Jesus.
Ebionite texts are a valuable witness on this as are the Elkesaites.
Romans 14 to 15:1 and 1 Corinthians 8:10-13 does seem to have commands that lead to vegetarianism.
James seems to have been a strict vegetarian.
I think the bulk of the evidence goes against your sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 1:02 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 2:19 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 254 of 716 (788271)
07-28-2016 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 1:00 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
Vegetarians eat stuff that got killed. Sorry but that's a fact and the topic of vegetarianism in this thread is just another total irrelevancy per usual.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 1:00 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 1:08 PM jar has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 255 of 716 (788272)
07-28-2016 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by jar
07-28-2016 1:02 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
quote:
Vegetarians eat stuff that got killed. Sorry but that's a fact and the topic of vegetarianism in this thread is just another total irrelevancy per usual.
The Temple, Passover, and sacrifices aren't important then?
Everything other than "j-a-r" is irrelevant it seems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 1:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 3:14 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
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