Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?

Hmmm. Good point. Redefined is the wrong word. Jesus fulfilled the prophesies in a way that was not consistent with the majority view way of they were understood at the time. It wasn't that He was saying the Romans weren't a problem. What He was in effect saying, was that the reason the Romans were a problem was due to the existence of evil. The way then to defeat the Romans and the evil that their system embodied was not to kill them but to change their hearts. This of course was intended to extend beyond the Romans to evil everywhere but it certainly would include the Romans.

And you still haven't said whether you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not.

But that's what makes your reasoning circular. You only have the resurrection to confirm the fulfillment of the prophecy but the resurrection stands on the same foundation as the claims of fulfillment - thin air. If the New Testament writers were wrong about the fulfillment of prophecy, they could be wrong about the (literal) resurrection too. You're taking both as a point of faith.

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And you still haven't said whether you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not.

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The Gospel author's saw events (whether they actually happened or not) in the records of the life of Jesus and attempted to find any little thing they could in the Old Testament, then called it "prophecy".Historians aren't even sure what actually happened.They do know that even the more reliable Gospels (like Matthew) were written fairly late and much of the prophecy part wasn't from Jesus' lips, but from later ideas.Like Jesus coming out of Egypt "fulfilling prophecy" in Hosea where the prophet was actually talking about Israel and the Exodus. That was read back into the life of Jesus by the unknown author of the Gospel of Matthew. However, Hosea did, in fact, talk about the ending of sacrifices in a way that can (seem to) be described as matching the events and founding of a new religion during time of Jesus, John the Baptist/Elijah, and the Temple destruction. One has to entertain various possibilities of course, but we badly need to figure out what the founders of Christianity thought and said.The Josephus documents talk about John the Baptist, but don't seem to see him as any type of Jesus follower.The Josephus documents do mention "James" the Just (James the Lesser). We know from Acts that James considered Amos to have been a representative of God that delivered an anti-nationalist message for the future (religion and world), and he interpreted his brother as bringing in a new era in which that was being fulfilled.Jesus seemed to want the Temple sacrifices to end.Paul too.The Ebionite/Nararene followers of James saw the sacrifices ending, during the Temple destruction, as being the work of Jesus. Their Gospel of Matthew says as much. They might have had the original "Q" document which Matthew collected (Papias said that logoi were collected by Matthew, and historians critically studying the existing Gospels have concluded that there was a Logoi Gospel. A Gospel of Thomas was found which fit the description - a sayings/Logoi Gospel free of narration - , in amazing ways, the historians predicted AND AND AND it has proven to have the oldest strain of quotes that the logoi/Sayings of Jesus that are in the current Gospels we have in the Bible!) along with additional traditions and narrative episodes not in the Synoptic Gospels existing today.We need to know what Jesus (and his followers) actually said (first).Lets figure it out.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Is that a yes or a no?

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And you still haven't said whether you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not.

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then

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Is that a yes or a no?

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Are you asking about the Gospel of Matthew saying this?

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Matthew 2
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

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Is that verse something that Jesus even thought?It refers to Hosea 11.

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Hosea 11
King James Version (KJV)

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1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

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2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.

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3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.

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4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

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5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, and the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.

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6 And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels.

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I think the evangelist said this but why I have no idea. I doubt the real Matthew said this.I doubt Jesus ever thought of Hosea in this way.Paul might not have thought this either.Everybody has their own opinion I suppose.What do you think?

I'm asking this:

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Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not? Message 280

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I can't make head or tail from your posts whether you're trying to confirm the Christian belief or refute it. There's no need to quote volumes of Josephus. Just tell us which side you're on and we can try to go on from there.

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I can't make head or tail from your posts whether you're trying to confirm the Christian belief or refute it. There's no need to quote volumes of Josephus. Just tell us which side you're on and we can try to go on from there.

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We have to figure out which "Christian" period we are discussing to get the what constitutes a "Christian belief".No religion on earth has seen more changed among what constitutes "Christian belief(s)" to its followers than the Christian religion (called variously "Nararene", "Ebionite" or The Way/ha derek during the time of the 1st Christian century A.D.) in the first century and then what it has been the last 1500-1700/1800 years. If one just looks at the "Church Fathers" (and ignores the Jewish Christians as represented by Narzarenes, Ebionites, Elkesaites, and even Manicheans who were still numerous from beginnings of the time of (peversion & corruption started by) Clement of Rome to Constantine 325/Theodosius I 380/Augustine 386) then the changes from the last 1900 years are monumental.If we look at the end of 1st Christian century (about 90 A.D./C.E.), when the Gospel of Matthew was penned, then we can look at prophecies that were described as fulfilled by the unknown author of Matthew; we can look at the quotes of the words of Jesus too. If we want to go earlier than that, then we need to see what Paul taught. If we want to go even earlier then we can see what the Ebionites and Nazarenes taught, and the 100 A.D.Elkesaites can be helpful to critically look at too.Looking at the 90 A.D. writings of the Gospel of Matthew, it might be useful to use google to learn about concepts and teaching techniques.I put JESUS MIDRASH PROPHECY into google, so I could get searches relevant to prophecy issues, and to them a discussion of techniques of the people from that age. A search with just JESUS MIDRASH would be the better place to start however.Here is the first hit for the former google search. It is the fundamentalist Chuck Missler.Midrash Hermeneutics: Pattern, not Just Prediction: – Chuck Missler – Koinonia HouseThere will be alot of issues to consider, so perhaps we should start here?
Google"apostle paul teach techniques logic"
"Jesus Midrash"Then attack "prophecy" to each search.Perhaps then we can learn more.Any ideas?We have seen in this thread that the prophecies quoted by the OP clearly seem all boogered up by today's standards of what constitutes an actual connection. The original Old Testament authors clearly did not have Jesus in mind when the text was written down. That much is certain. That much is settled.The idea of "Midrash" is my "solution"(?).Any better ideas.

Answer the question.

What is so funny is all the folk posting about what the authors of the passages used as prophesy thought or intended. That of course is irrelevant. Jews decided about 2000 years ago that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah and that has still not changed.The issue is whether or not the Christian Apologists that try to connect Jesus with passages from the Jewish writings can support their assertions. So far I have never found any capable of making a convincing argument supporting Jesus fulfilling Old Testament passage that was not patently and intentionally contrived.

I grew up with the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah. We went to a performance of Handel's Messiah every Christmas. (I still play the CD at Christmas.)But the more you look at it, the clearer it is that it's reverse engineering.

Sadly so. It is a forced attempt to pretend that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah when all that is needed is a celebration of a Christian Messiah. It is a mighty effort to create a failure.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin might ----> mighty

Not really. The prophesies were ambiguous. There could be numerous understandings, and of course the one that was popular was the one that would benefit the Jews in their lifetime. After being beaten down for so many years by their more powerful neighbours they desparately wanted to be the powerful nation for a change and they desperately wanted Yahweh to do this for them. One way they hoped this would happen was by God sending an anointed one (a messiah) who would lead them in this mission. People have always wanted to control their deities.
We used to have a sign on the fridge that said:

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Most people want to serve God but only in an advisory capacity.

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However, within the ambiguity of the prophesies Jesus found a thread that led to a very different understanding of what the messiah was to do.
During the period between the Hasmonean dynasty in 63 BC and the Bar Kokhba revolt around 135 AD there were numerous messianic movements. (My understanding there were 16 that we know of.) The other movements were all military and all ended disastrously, with some more so than others. The leaders and their followers were executed and their movements were forgotten. The Jewish people just carried on looking for another messiah.
The point is that there were a number of prophesies and not all were fulfilled. Jesus came to a specific understanding of the entire Jewish scripture that was not what His countrymen wanted to hear. He said that they were to love their enemies including the Romans and that Yahweh was not just to be a Jewish God but a God for the whole world.So yes, it was after the resurrection that Jesus’ followers really understood what Jesus was talking about and how Jesus had sifted through the themes of their scriptures to understand Jesus’ message.
The resurrection was the evidence that Jesus had it right and then they began to sort what that was to mean to them and to figure out what that called them to do with their lives.
Without the resurrection Jesus would simply have been another failed messiah and he would have been quickly forgotten.

No, they really weren't. As I may have mentioned earlier, a prophecy that nobody can understand is worthless.The messianic prophecies were fuel for wishful thinking. They gave the Jewish people hope in troubled times.The Second Coming of Jesus is a similar prophecy. It's much like various cults predicting the end of the world - when the predicted date passes, they just move the goalposts. If the Second Coming did happen, no doubt there would be people predicting a Third Coming, when Jesus really, really will make everything better.

I don't think your statement is completely true. It is true that prophecies that are not understandable before the fact do not have any predictive power. But prediction is not the only function of prophecy. If those prophecies are understandable only after the fact, then they do have confirmation power, allowing us to possibly distinguish a real prophet or Messiah from a fake one. Further, having a prophecy of a future event from a reliable predictor provides a reason to be patient even if the details of the prophecy are not understood.