Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?

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Not at all. God made the planets, not the Roman Empire

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Well there's a massive non-sequitur. Astrology is pagan and uses pagan associations.

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Larson's context IS the Biblical context, and there is no other way to use the symbols in that context than the way he uses them.

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By which you mean he is inventing meanings for the symbols to suit his purposes. Just as I said. It is nice to see you agreeing with my criticisms but trying to make them into positives by using phrases you find positive doesn't offer any rational answer.

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But it is you who are making up that Larson made it up.

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Then where did Larson get it from ? You haven't offered anything and what I've seen indicates that ancient sources had quite different ideas.

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The Magi might not have used the name Jupiter anyway, but it wouldn't matter because such symbols are universal. Many ancient cultures had an astrological system that used more or less the same constellations and planets and they had their own names for all of it

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Chinese astrology is rather different and most of the similar systems are related. Even the Vedic system differs mainly by rejecting Ptolomy's fixing of the Signs to locations in the sky rather than the constellations.

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The cultural source of the symbols is irrelevant if God is in charge of it all anyway, and Larson's use of them is completely in keeping with the biblical context. Nobody would come up with any other correspondence than he did.

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Oh, they certainly could - especially if they did not have a particular meaning in mind when they started. The Jews for instance are associated with no astrological marker at all or Pisces or Aquarius or Taurus or Virgo or Capricorn. See [url=https://gilgamesh42.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/the-star-of-bethlehem-documentary-the-constellation-leo-as-the-sign-of-the-jews/]here[\url] for more.Symbolism is often ambiguous, as I pointed out. That is why "finding" the meaning you are looking for is less significant than you or Larson think.

But Jupiter is not a fallen angel in ANY religion except some modern Christian sects.Nor is Jupiter taken as the paramount god in many planet based religions; the Sun and Moon are far more common.What Larsen is doing really is making stuff up trying to create after the fact fake confirmation of failed prophesies.But then again, that was what the authors of the Bible stories were doing as well. But of course many people have come up with many other "correspondences" than what Larsen makes up. Plus as expected the sources and dates are all over the place since the date of Jesus birth is unknown.The fact that so many different "signs" are taken to show support should be one of the clues that they are all made up after the fact and simply attempts to force fit them into the stories.

Jupiter in every system is the highest god or king. Regulus in many cultures is the King star. This doesn't require creative interpretation, it's quite plain.

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Well, believers will interpret it differently than you do of course.

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Yes, they will reject the intended meaning for one of their own invention.

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Your problem is that being an unbeliever you impose a fallen perspective on it. That's why I can't take anything you say about the Bible seriously

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Which only means that I refuse to twist it to fit your beliefs.I don't trust your claims about the Bible because you care more for your beliefs than for the truth. As you did only yesterday when you tried to cover up Paul's slip in 1 Corinthians 1 by saying that he was only referring to those he was speaking to.You on the other hand don't trust what I say about the Bible because I DO care about interpreting it correctly - and get it right far more often than you.

Larson got fascinated with the question of the identity of the Christmas Star. He got involved in studying it. He bought an astronomy computer program for looking around the sky for celestial objects near the birth of Christ that could have been the star. He got involved in studying other attempts to locate the star, how to determine dates and so on. He found some very interesting astronomical / astrological phenomena in his study, maybe or maybe not the star itself, but it looks like a likely candidate to me.It's really not the big complicated deal everybody is making out of it.ABE: Again I will refer anyone interested back to the video posted in Message 438 I've also posted the timing for short segments on different aspects of the subject in Message 440 and one more recent one I'd have to look up, for those who might watch part but not all of it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But which King, and what is the interpretation of the conjunction? To quote from another page in the critique of Larson I think that there is rather a big distinction between the conception and the overthrow of a King.

I agree. The story Larsen makes up is not much different than all the other made up stories that people have tried to use to "fulfill" the prophesies.There are no legitimate fulfilled prophesies about Jesus or most anything else in the Bible.

that's actually very interesting about an "overthrown" King, since Jesus was crucified. It actually adds to the biblical picture rather than contradicting it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Faith, Larsens idea doesnt have merit.His theory doesnt fit the biblical narrative at all as mentioned.Retrograde Jupiter didn;t stay in the sky for months or years to quide the wise astonomers, it didn;t move from east to south to bring them to BethlehemAgain study geography and directionsAnd it didnt hover over the manager where they were still living in Jesus toddler years.It was definitely an angel.You have to stop forcing false blind science into true science and true spirituality.

Lets get back to the topic.... the star of Bethlehem was a sign, to the three astronomers, and was an angel that the shepherds heard and saw but they are not considered prewarned or prophecies convering the Messiah.But it wasnt prophesied beforehand like the other 93 or so prophecies concerning JESUS who was the Messiah, as He fulfilled all His PROPHECIES. so lets get away from the diversion of the Star of Bethlehem.. IMO.The Messianic prophecies are direct exact prophecies written BEFORE JESUS arrival and before His LIFE and foretold DEATH.The Messiah, or Saviour, or Deliver of God's people has been talked about since the beginning of time in all scriptures, and these
prophecies were called Messianic. They predicted exactly what the Lord of the Universe, the Son of Man, the Son of God and
the Lamb of God would do, and say, where, when, how, and why.And His Name is JESUS, and He fulfilled all the Messianic Prophecies, as He and the Father are One. (SEE Jesus is God) And
He even fulfilled the exact Timing of His Birth in Daniel 9, so that no one or no nation can deny that the Messiah has already
come and already shed His blood for ALL. ----- giving Salvation to ALL that will accept it by Faith
Heavenly Mysteries
.. Fulfilled Prophecy
Old Testament
New Testament
His Pre-Existence
Micah 5:2
John 1:1, 14
Born of the seed of a woman
Genesis 3:15
Matthew 1:18
Of the seed of Abraham
Genesis 12:3
Matthew 1:1-16
All nations blessed by Abraham's seed
Genesis 12:3
Matthew 8:5, 10
God would provide Himself a Lamb as an
offering
Genesis 22:8
John 1:29
From the tribe of Judah
Genesis 49:10
Matthew 1:1-3
Heir to the throne of David
Isaiah 9:6-7
Matthew 1:1
Called "The mighty God, The everlasting
Father"
Isaiah 9:6
Matthew 1:23
Born in Bethlehem
Micah 5:2
Matthew 2:1
Born of a virgin
Isaiah 7:14
Matthew 1:18
His name called Immanuel, "God with us"
Isaiah 7:14
Matthew 1:23
Declared to be the Son of God
Psalm 2:7
Matthew 3:17
His messenger before Him in spirit of Elijah
Malachi 4:5-6
Luke 1:17
Preceded by a messenger to prepare His way
Malachi 3:1
Matthew 11:7-11
Messenger crying "Prepare ye the way of the
Lord"
Isaiah 40:3
Matthew 3:3
Would be a Prophet of the children of Israel
Deuteronomy 18:15
Matthew 2:15
Called out of Egypt
Hosea 11:1
Matthew 2:15
Slaughter of the children
Jeremiah 31:15
Matthew 2:18
Would be a Nazarene
Judges 13:5; Amos 2:11;
Lam. 4:7
Matthew 2:23Continue on to more absolute conclusive prove of
JESUS as the Messiah ----- Part TWOContinue on to more absolute conclusive prove of
JESUS as the Messiah ----- Part TWO
(From Jesus is Lord web-site )Brought light to Zabulon & Nephthalm, Galilee
of the Gentiles
Isaiah 9:1-2
Matthew 4:15
Presented with gifts
Psalm 72:10
Matthew 2:1, 11
Rejected by His own
Isaiah 53:3
Matthew 21:42;
12:10; Luke 9:22,
He is the stone which the builders rejected
which became the headstone
Psalm 118:22-23; Isaiah
28:16
Matthew 21:42;
A stone of stumbling to Israel
Isaiah 8:14-15
I Peter 2:8
He entered Jerusalem as a king
riding on an ass
Zechariah 9:9
Matthew 21:5
Betrayed by a friend
Psalms 41:9
John 13:21
Sold for 30 pieces of silver
Zechariah 11:12
Matthew 26:15;
The 30 pieces of silver given for the potter's
field
Zechariah 11:12
Matthew 27:9-10
The 30 pieces of silver thrown in the temple
Zechariah 11:13
Matthew 27:5
Forsaken by His disciples
Zechariah 13:7
Matthew 26:56
Accused by false witnesses
Psalm 35:11
Matthew 26:60
Silent to accusations
Isaiah 53:7
Matthew 27:14
Heal blind/deaf/lame/dumb
Isaiah 35:5-6; Isaiah
29:18
Matthew 11:5
Preached to the poor/brokenhearted/captives
Isaiah 61:1
Matthew 11:5
Came to bring a sword, not peace
Micah 7:6
Matthew 10:34-35
He bore our sickness
Isaiah 53:4
Matthew 8:16-17
Spat upon, smitten and scourged
Isaiah 50:6, 53:5
Matthew 27:26, 30
Smitten on the cheek
Micah 5:1
Matthew 27:30
Hated without a cause
Psalm 35:19
Matthew 27:23
The sacrificial lamb
Isaiah 53:5
John 1:29
Given for a covenant
Isaiah 42:6; Jeremiah
31:31-34
Romans 11:27/Galatians 3:17,
4:24/Hebrews 8:6, 8, 10; 10:16,
29; 12:24; 13:20
Would not strive or cry
Isaiah 42:2-3
Mark 7:36
People would hear not and see not
Isaiah 6:9-10
Matthew 13:14-15
People trust in traditions of men
Isaiah 29:13
Matthew 15:9
People give God lip service
Isaiah 29:13
Matthew 15:8
God delights in Him
Isaiah 42:1
Matthew 3:17, 17:5Wounded for our sins
Isaiah 53:5
John 6:51
He bore the sins of many
Isaiah 53:10-12
Mark 10:45
Messiah not killed for Himself
Daniel 9:26
Matthew 20:28
Gentiles flock to Him
Isaiah 55:5, 60:3, 65:1;
Malachi 1:11;
II Samuel 22:44-45;
Psalm 2:7-8
Matthew 8:10
Crucified with criminals
Isaiah 53:12
Matthew 27:35
His body was pierced
Zechariah 12:10; Ps.
22:16
John 20:25, 27
Thirsty during execution
Psalm 22:16
John 19:28
Given vinegar and gall for thirst
Psalm 69:21
Matthew 27:34
Soldiers gambled for his garment
Psalm 22:18
Matthew 27:35
People mocked, "He trusted in God, let Him
deliver him!"
Psalm 22:7-8
Matthew 27:43
People sat there looking at Him
Psalm 22:17
Matthew 27:36
Cried, "My God, my God why hast thou
forsaken me?"
Psalm 22:1
Matthew 27:46
Darkness over the land
Amos 8:9
Matthew 27:45
No bones broken
Psalm 34:20, Numbers
9:12
John 19:33-36
Side pierced
Zechariah 12:10
John 19:34
Buried with the rich
Isaiah 53:9
Matthew 27:57, 60
Resurrected from the dead
Psalm 16:10-11; 49:15
Mark 16:6
Priest after the order of Melchizedek
Psalm 110:4
Hebrews 5:5-6;
Ascended to right hand of God
Psalm 68:18
Luke 24:51
LORD said unto Him, "Sit thou at my right
hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool
Psalm 110:1
Matt 22:44;
Luke 20:42-43;
Hebrews 1:13
His coming glory
Malachi 3:2-3
Luke 3:17Meet Him Today

I just went to get myself some breakfast and kept pondering what you wrote here. I had to keep from getting tears in my food. Larson saw the figures of Jupiter moving back and forth past Regulus and saw only that this was a King relating to a king, and the three passes made it seem very important. It also occurred in Leo, the sign of the Lion of Judah, the tribe from which the Messiah was to come, and it was closely followed by Virgo the virgin "clothed with the sun" with the new moon of Rosh Hashana at her feet, and the twelve stars on her head signifying all the tribes of Israel.But what you have posted about its meaning as an overthrown king brings it into focus. This is God the Father designating His Son to be the sacrificial lamb, at the time of His conception (the new moon). Or possibly birth, but Larson found the bright conjunction of Jupiter with Venus (God the Father with the virgin) nine months later.This all makes that sky picture particularly moving. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Hmmm..... much better Faith. Larsens retrograde Jupiter was probably not the Star of Bethlehem, but Yes, many correspondances to the King of King, Regulus (His heart) three passing are very significant so any wise astronomer worth his weight in gold, myrhh and frankinsense would have recognised this sign in the sky.Because we have to remember the Lord of Creation and the Saviour of the whole Universe controlls all things, planets, stars etc.... and so just an angel, a huge bright one would NOT be the only sign of His 1st COMING.Larsens video because of your explanation, then can be worth a see... a see and believe LOOKEdited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

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I just went to get myself some breakfast and kept pondering what you wrote here. I had to keep from getting tears in my food.

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You should be used to ideas you like turning out to have serious problems.

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Larson saw the figures of Jupiter moving back and forth past Regulus and saw only that this was a King relating to a king, and the three passes made it seem very important. It also occurred in Leo, the sign of the Lion of Judah, the tribe from which the Messiah was to come, and it was closely followed by Virgo the virgin "clothed with the sun" with the new moon of Rosh Hashana at her feet, and the twelve stars on her head signifying all the tribes of Israel.

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You do realise that he constellations are essentially fixed ? That Virgo always follows Leo ? Anyway the fact remains that this is Larson's interpretation, created to fit the meaning he wanted and not one the magi could be expected to subscribe to.

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But what you have posted about its meaning as an overthrown king brings it into focus. This is God the Father designating His Son to be the sacrificial lamb, at the time of His conception (the new moon). Or possibly birth, but Larson found the bright conjunction of Jupiter with Venus (God the Father with the virgin) nine months later.

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And there you are doing it yourself. As I said the problem with symbolism is that there are too many things that it can mean. Astrology is especially prone to this - to the obvious advantage of astrologers.

PaulK, learn to differentiate and be exact.Scientific not linquistic.Astronomy is scientific, astrology is semantic twisting, just as creation is scientific and evolution is semantics.The wise men were astronomers and not mathematicians and spiritual.So learn to write responsibly without distortion. Evolutionists love semantics and double speak and 'double write definitions' etc... but you should learn to write scientifically and exactly.Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Hey, David, how about you answer my question.Your "math" identified 2012 as the start of the Great Tribulation.Why didn't anyone notice?