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Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 117 (705366)
08-26-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Stile
08-26-2013 1:50 PM


Re: Short Summary
The quote is simply saying that your happiness due to your belief doesn't imply that God exists.
I haven't taken anything in this thread to be an argument or implication for the existence of deities.
2. A whole bunch of people who are happy and say that they are happier because of God... doesn't make God exist.
I don't see this addressed in the quote at all.
The quote just says that it can be dangerous to believe in things just because they make you happy, and that this caution extends to religious beliefs.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Stile, posted 08-26-2013 1:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 08-26-2013 2:31 PM Jon has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(2)
Message 47 of 117 (705367)
08-26-2013 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by marc9000
08-24-2013 8:08 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
The main reason I'm skeptical of that claim is because so many atheists are also liberals, and it doesn't make sense that people who work hard, take risks, and succeed with money would favor a political party that wants to take away the fruits of their labors and redistribute it to others. And yes, I have evidence that atheists tend to be liberal;
As a well educated, financially secure person who as worked hard all their life I voted liberal because I not everyone has had the advantages and luck I have had.
Voting for a position where the less fortunate are support by some of my wages seems to make perfect sense to me.
It's the right thing to do.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by marc9000, posted 08-24-2013 8:08 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:30 PM Larni has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 117 (705369)
08-26-2013 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Rahvin
08-26-2013 1:23 PM


Re: Short Summary
In many, many cases, the fulfillment of a value causes extreme discomfort and sometimes even misery.
What floats the boat is what makes you happy.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 1:23 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 2:42 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 49 of 117 (705370)
08-26-2013 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
08-26-2013 1:55 PM


Re: Short Summary
Catholic Scientist writes:
There is no other purpose to life.
There's the question of what is the purpose of this collection of self-replicating organic material, and then there's the question of what is the purpose of your existence as an individual. He asked the latter and you answered the former.
It's the same answer.
If the question is instead "how can I feel content with my life?" I'd give a slightly different answer (although it would contain a large element of replicating life - or at least going through the motions.)
The reason religion exists at all, is the egotistical opinion that life has a puropse beyond itself - it doesn't.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-26-2013 1:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-26-2013 2:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 117 (705371)
08-26-2013 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Larni
08-26-2013 2:18 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
It's the right thing to do.
And it makes you happy.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Larni, posted 08-26-2013 2:18 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 08-26-2013 2:36 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 08-26-2013 2:37 PM Jon has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 117 (705372)
08-26-2013 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:17 PM


Re: Short Summary
Jon writes:
The quote just says that it can be dangerous to believe in things just because they make you happy, and that this caution extends to religious beliefs.
Yes, that's technically true. But just wrong.
The context of the quote is that it is a rebuttal of an argument:
Believer -> God exists. That's why Christians are happier than atheists... it's proof that God exists!
George Bernard Shaw -> The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.
Notice how the quote says "...no more to the point..."
"The point" being discussed is whether or not God exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:17 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 3:26 PM Stile has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 52 of 117 (705373)
08-26-2013 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
08-26-2013 12:43 PM


Re: Short Summary
And you've given an example I can counter: I value knowledge and truth over happiness.
I'm not sure I understand this.
For me, seeking knowledge and truth are what make me happy.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 12:43 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 2:41 PM nwr has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 53 of 117 (705375)
08-26-2013 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:30 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
And it makes you happy.
Not so. It annoys me (I'm naturally selfish) but I do it because it's the right thing to do and makes sense.
(Damn moochers).
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:30 PM Jon has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 54 of 117 (705376)
08-26-2013 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:30 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Jon writes:
Larni writes:
It's the right thing to do.
And it makes you happy.
Just because it makes you happy... or could make someone else happy doesn't mean it does.
You're in the "there's no such thing as an unselfish good-deed" fallacy.
Just because you can think of a reason why an action could have been selfish... doesn't mean that is the reason why the action was taken. Therefore, the action could have been taken for unselfish reasons.
In the same vein...
Just because you can think of a reason why someone's action might make them happy... doesn't mean that is the reason why the action was taken. Therefore, the action could have been taken for non-happy reasons.
Or:
Just because someone gains some amount of happiness following their purpose to life... doesn't mean that their purpose to life definitely is to gain happiness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:30 PM Jon has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 55 of 117 (705377)
08-26-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by nwr
08-26-2013 2:33 PM


Re: Short Summary
I'm not sure I understand this.
For me, seeking knowledge and truth are what make me happy.
And yet you might make life choices that are unarguably less "happy" in the pursuit of fulfilling that ultimate goal.
The fuzzy definition of "happiness" is part of what I'm trying to point out. In one sense a person seeking "happiness" is a hedonist trying to maximize pleasure and enjoyment in life. In another sense "happiness" can be the contentment of having fulfilled a value, even though the process was not enjoyable.
But see my other earlier response - there are choices some people make in life that are virtually guaranteed to result in misery and even death for the individual, yet they choose those paths over happier options because there is something else they value more than their own happiness.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 4:16 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


(1)
Message 56 of 117 (705378)
08-26-2013 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:28 PM


Re: Short Summary
What floats the boat is what makes you happy.
You're using a definition of "happy" that encompasses literally everything.
If prison, torture, and death are encompassed in your definition of "happy," then I contend that your usage makes the word utterly meaningless.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:28 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 117 (705379)
08-26-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
08-26-2013 2:29 PM


Re: Short Summary
It's the same answer.
Not at all. Plenty of people's lives have had a purpose that had nothing to do with just reproducing.
The reason religion exists at all, is the egotistical opinion that life has a puropse beyond itself - it doesn't.
Our lives can, in fact, have a purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 2:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 2:44 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


(1)
Message 58 of 117 (705381)
08-26-2013 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
08-26-2013 2:43 PM


Re: Short Summary
Our lives can, in fact, have a purpose.
And the short resolution to that dichotomy is that nature doesn't care - but we do.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-26-2013 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 3:28 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 117 (705382)
08-26-2013 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Stile
08-26-2013 2:31 PM


Re: Short Summary
Jon writes:
The quote just says that it can be dangerous to believe in things just because they make you happy, and that this caution extends to religious beliefs.
Yes, that's technically true. But just wrong.
The context of the quote is that it is a rebuttal of an argument:
Believer -> God exists. That's why Christians are happier than atheists... it's proof that God exists!
George Bernard Shaw -> The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.
Notice how the quote says "...no more to the point..."
"The point" being discussed is whether or not God exists.
Then what does the quote have to do with this thread?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 08-26-2013 2:31 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Stile, posted 08-26-2013 3:38 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 117 (705383)
08-26-2013 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Rahvin
08-26-2013 2:44 PM


Re: Short Summary
I think it's clear that Tangle was being an equivocating wise ass.
No need to dwell on his nonsense.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 2:44 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 4:04 PM Jon has not replied

  
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