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Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
marc9000
Member
Posts: 949
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 76 of 117 (705405)
08-26-2013 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by onifre
08-26-2013 10:16 AM


Re: Listing the Issues
Blue collar workers are very religious as well. I don't think you have your story straight.

Well yes, many days I hear God's name mentioned several times. With the word "damn" behind it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by onifre, posted 08-26-2013 10:16 AM onifre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 08-26-2013 8:40 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17873
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 77 of 117 (705409)
08-26-2013 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by marc9000
08-26-2013 7:36 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
marc9000 writes:

quote:
Four of every 10 children experience parental divorce,[9] but a link between religious practice and a decreased likelihood of divorce has been established in numerous studies

The last one especially, earlier in this thread we saw the claim that atheists are less likely to get divorced. Both can't be right.

You're making the same mistake I described in my Message 33 (which I think you missed in the flurry of messages earlier today) - you don't understand the statistics. I mentioned at one point that atheists are underrepresented in many negative categories, including divorce. It wasn't a comparison between atheists and religious people. And all your statistic says is that religious practice (usually defined as church attendance) is associated with lower divorce rates. It's a comparison of religious people who attend church with religious people who don't attend church. It, too, isn't a comparison to atheists.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 7:36 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17873
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 78 of 117 (705413)
08-26-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by marc9000
08-26-2013 7:39 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
marc9000 writes:

Blue collar workers are very religious as well. I don't think you have your story straight.

Well yes, many days I hear God's name mentioned several times. With the word "damn" behind it.

Sometimes it's like you're not even connected to reality. Are you under some illusion that the religious don't curse? The connection between high religiosity and the lower socio-economic classes, the most coarse strata of society, was well known long before surveys and polls verified it statistically. Karl Marx probably described it most famously when he called religion "the opiate of the masses."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 7:39 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17873
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 79 of 117 (705414)
08-26-2013 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by marc9000
08-26-2013 7:36 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Here's an interesting graph, Marc. It shows that the more conservative the religion, the less the education and the lower the income:

Source: Is Your Religion Your Financial Destiny?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 7:36 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 1:12 PM Percy has responded
 Message 92 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2013 7:58 PM Percy has responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 427 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 80 of 117 (705432)
08-27-2013 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by marc9000
08-26-2013 7:36 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
marc9000 writes:


quote:

Four of every 10 children experience parental divorce,[9] but a link between religious practice and a decreased likelihood of divorce has been established in numerous studies

The last one especially, earlier in this thread we saw the claim that atheists are less likely to get divorced. Both can't be right.

They could be. Especially if the churchgoing religious are being compared largely to non-churchgoing religious, and the atheists have low divorce rates partially because they're less likely to get married in the first place!

Funnily enough, if you look into it, I think you'll find that the New England states that were high on life expectancy and low on religiosity also have relatively low rates of divorce.

Here's an article to contrast with the Telegraph one in the O.P.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 7:36 PM marc9000 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 81 of 117 (705435)
08-27-2013 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by marc9000
08-26-2013 6:44 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
The bolded part is what applies to this thread. Since I used my skepticism to further explore the claim that was made, I found that it made a lot of sense in this case.

How can you balance things by reciting complete nonsense? What you are suggesting is that you feel justified in being a complete fraud simply because you want to oppose something you don't want to hear.

And those don't appear to be the words that I criticized. You posted complete and utter nonsense while claiming to know better. You have no idea what the religious backgrounds of the people in the ghettos happen to be.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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 Message 74 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 6:44 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3257
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 82 of 117 (705443)
08-27-2013 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Jon
08-26-2013 6:05 PM


Long Summary
Jon writes:

Where does the article claim that happiness in the belief in a deity is evidence for that deity's existence?

I don't think it does.

I have a bit of time, so I'll try to go through this again. Here is the quote:

quote:
"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."

You replied to it asking why you shouldn't be able to be happy believing in God just because it makes you happy.

I replied to you saying that's not a problem.
I then attempted to explain the quote for you, saying that the quote makes two points:

1. Simply being happy doesn't make someone a better person.
2. A whole bunch of people who are happy and say that they are happier because of God... doesn't make God exist.

The first point is germane to the blog and the thread, that's why it's listed first. (You eventually requested extreme clarification, given to you in Message 61).
The second point is just another point that the quote makes. I was explaining the quote to you, so I thought it would be nice to... explain the quote to you.

Then you latched onto the 2nd point in your Message 46, as if it was the only point, and started asking questions about how the 2nd point is derived from the quote at all.
I replied to this and showed you how the 2nd point is another main factor to the quote in Message 51

Now, you ask this:

Where does the article claim that happiness in the belief in a deity is evidence for that deity's existence?

I think you've gotten a bit confused to the contexts of what you've been asking about. I'll try to clarify things for you some more with a few helpful notes:

The 2nd point isn't important to the article, but it is important to the quote.
The 2nd point was explained in more detail to you because you asked how it was connected to the quote at all.
The 1st point of the quote explains how the quote makes sense as a reply to the article in the first place.
The 1st point was explained in more detail to you because you asked how the quote was connected to the article.

So, the answer to your question is:

I don't think the article does claim that happiness in the belief in a deity is evidence for that deity's existence.
And the reason we just talked so much about it, was because you were asking how that 2nd point was connected to the quote. I answered you, and it seems like you got confused and thought I was telling you how that 2nd point was connected to the article.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 6:05 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 1:13 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 117 (705447)
08-27-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
08-26-2013 5:12 PM


Once you've accepted that life has no Purpose you can find happinesses in cleaning shoes with a purpose.

I don't believe that's true, in that accepting life has no Purpose isn't a requirement. Can you make it's case with an argument?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 5:12 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2013 1:37 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 117 (705456)
08-27-2013 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
08-26-2013 9:07 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
And how exactly is the conservativeness of a religion determined?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 08-26-2013 9:07 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Percy, posted 08-27-2013 2:17 PM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 117 (705457)
08-27-2013 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Stile
08-27-2013 11:25 AM


Re: Long Summary
It's clear the quote doesn't fit the context of this thread. I don't think there's any more point in discussing it.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Stile, posted 08-27-2013 11:25 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 86 of 117 (705459)
08-27-2013 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
08-27-2013 11:43 AM


CS writes:

I don't believe that's true, in that accepting life has no Purpose isn't a requirement. Can you make it's case with an argument?

Accepting life has no Purpose is not a requirement to being content with your lot. Those that believe that it DOES have a Purpose can, of course, be happy.

My comment was that those that belief life has a Purpose often think that we atheists can't be happy (or have any sense of morality for that matter) because we have no Purpose. I'm simply saying that it's perfectly possible to lead a happy and contented life having accepted that life is ultimately pointless. (In the grander sense.)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-27-2013 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 117 (705461)
08-27-2013 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
08-27-2013 1:37 PM


I'm simply saying that it's perfectly possible to lead a happy and contented life having accepted that life is ultimately pointless.

Oh. Was I wrong to read "Once X then Y" as saying that X is required for Y? Cause that's what I think that means.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2013 1:37 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 17873
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 88 of 117 (705464)
08-27-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jon
08-27-2013 1:12 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Jon writes:

And how exactly is the conservativeness of a religion determined?

I don't understand why you're asking. Did you think I was using "conservative" in a political sense? I just meant religions toward the more fundamentalist end of the spectrum. As you can see in the graph, for example, the Baptists, Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are relatively close together, and they have the shared characteristics of lower income, lesser education, and more conservative religious beliefs such as inerrancy and stricter adherence to Biblical and traditional rules and roles.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 1:12 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2013 2:24 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 08-27-2013 4:43 PM Percy has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 89 of 117 (705465)
08-27-2013 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Percy
08-27-2013 2:17 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Maybe he doesn't have a dictionary.

Here is one definition that fits your use of the word.

quote:
disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

I'll let him search for a source.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Percy, posted 08-27-2013 2:17 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 90 of 117 (705475)
08-27-2013 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Percy
08-27-2013 2:17 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
... more conservative religious beliefs such as inerrancy and stricter adherence to Biblical and traditional rules and roles.

How do you actually measure the strictness with which a religion adheres to its holy book(s)? What are 'traditional rules and roles'?

Are Muslims really less conservative than Jehovah's Witnesses? Are secular folk more conservative than Hindus?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Percy, posted 08-27-2013 2:17 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Percy, posted 08-27-2013 7:53 PM Jon has responded

  
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