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Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 117 (705527)
08-28-2013 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Jon
08-28-2013 12:26 PM


Look at the religions that we know are the most conservative; They fall on the bottom left side of the graph.

Yes.

Well there you go, that's the point.

But look at all of theminstead of just the conservative onesand we see a distributional pattern completely divorced from the conservativeness of the belief system.

It obviously doesn't work across the board. But if you look at the most conservative religions, they do have the lowest education and income.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 12:26 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 1:13 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 117 (705529)
08-28-2013 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by New Cat's Eye
08-28-2013 12:41 PM


It obviously doesn't work across the board.

There are as many outliers as there are points fitting the 'trend'. I'd say it doesn't seem to work at all.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 12:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 1:38 PM Jon has responded
 Message 109 by Percy, posted 08-28-2013 1:59 PM Jon has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 108 of 117 (705533)
08-28-2013 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Jon
08-28-2013 1:13 PM


I'd say it doesn't seem to work at all.

At all? The Baptists, Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are the most conservative Christians I can think of, and look how uneducated and poor they are!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 1:13 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 9:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 109 of 117 (705536)
08-28-2013 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Jon
08-28-2013 1:13 PM


Focusing just on Christian religions, from left to right on the graph (in other words, from low income/low education to high income/high education) we have this ordering:

  • Jehovah's Witnesses
  • Pentecostals
  • Baptists
  • Catholics
  • Mormons
  • Lutherans
  • Methodists
  • Presbyterians
  • Unitarians
  • Anglicans/Episcopalians

I think you're going to have a hard time finding anyone besides yourself and maybe Marc who can't see that the more conservative religions are nearer the bottom of the categories, while the more liberal religions are nearer the top.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 1:13 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 10:44 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 117 (705550)
08-28-2013 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
08-28-2013 1:38 PM


Picking Cherries
quote:
Catholic Scientist in Message 108:

The Baptists, Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are the most conservative Christians I can think of, and look how uneducated and poor they are!


quote:
Percy in Message 109:

Focusing just on Christian religions, from left to right on the graph (in other words, from low income/low education to high income/high education) we have this ordering


You're both making the same error. You are selecting for focus only the data points that fit the model as you see it and ignoring the rest.

And you are both refusing to address the issue of the placement of 'secular' and 'unaffiliated religious'.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 1:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Percy, posted 08-28-2013 10:53 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2013 8:53 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 117 (705552)
08-28-2013 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Percy
08-28-2013 1:59 PM


quote:
Catholic Scientist in Message 108:

The Baptists, Pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are the most conservative Christians I can think of, and look how uneducated and poor they are!


quote:
Percy in Message 109:

Focusing just on Christian religions, from left to right on the graph (in other words, from low income/low education to high income/high education) we have this ordering


You're both making the same error. You are selecting for focus only the data points that fit the model as you see it and ignoring the rest.

And you are both refusing to address the issue of the placement of 'secular' and 'unaffiliated religious'.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Percy, posted 08-28-2013 1:59 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 112 of 117 (705553)
08-28-2013 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Jon
08-28-2013 9:29 PM


Re: Picking Cherries
Jon writes:

You're both making the same error. You are selecting for focus only the data points that fit the model as you see it and ignoring the rest.

If your point is that the graph only indicates that it is within Christianity that increasing religiosity correlates with lower income and education then I don't see why you felt that was a point worth making. Marc is a conservative Christian, most of the people we discuss with are conservative Christians, and so naturally the discussion is focused on Christianity. Though I suspect the same probably holds true for Islam and Judaism, neither was the religion I had in mind.

There was only a single data point for Muslims on that graph, and only two data points for Judaism, not enough to draw any conclusions. But there were at least 10 data points for Christianity, more than enough to draw firm conclusions. Clearly the more conservative the Christian religion, the less the income and education.

That religions putting a much greater emphasis on strictly following their faith should end up placing less emphasis on material things like income and education makes perfect sense to most people, and the evidence backs this up. Your objections make no sense and have no evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 9:29 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6229
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 113 of 117 (705572)
08-29-2013 3:04 AM


FYI


Wealth and Religion

A study in the United States, published in the Social Forces journal and conducted by Sociology researcher Lisa A. Keister, found that adherents of Judaism and Episcopalian attained the most wealth, believers of Catholicism and mainline Protestants were in the middle, while conservative Protestants accumulated the least wealth, while in general people who attend religious services achieved more wealth than those who do not (taking into account variations of education and other factors).[1] The researcher suggests that wealth accumulation is shaped by family processes.[2]

The median net worth of people believing in the Jewish religion is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was found at 26,200 USD.[1] The overall median in the dataset was 48,200 USD.

Another study, published in the American Journal of Sociology (AJS) by Lisa Keister, found that "religion affects wealth indirectly through educational attainment, fertility, and female labor force participation" but also found some evidence of direct effects of religion on wealth attainment.[3]

Wealth and atheism

Some studies have found correlations between wealth and lack of religious beliefs. The GDP of countries generally correlates negatively with their religiosity, i.e. the less religious a population is the wealthier it is.[4][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 117 (705592)
08-29-2013 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Jon
08-28-2013 9:29 PM


Re: Picking Cherries
You're both making the same error. You are selecting for focus only the data points that fit the model as you see it and ignoring the rest.

Well whoopty-fucking-do. Perhaps we're just not actually "modeling" what you think we are. Its a simple point, really: the more conservative ones are less educated and poorer. You can see that in the graph with a glance.

Like I said, the most conservative groups I'm familiar with are on the bottom left. Its a no-brainer.

You're just taking us at a lot more than what we're saying. I don't have any kind of "model" that I'm fitting data to. Again, its just a simple point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Jon, posted 08-28-2013 9:29 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 115 of 117 (705702)
08-30-2013 6:07 PM


Back to the Topic
I guess there's not going to be any further questioning of the correlation of lower income and education with increasing religiosity. Boy, nothing like a little hard evidence to squelch discussion. I guess this is what Dawn Bertot would call fascism!

So are atheists behaving insanely by ignoring all the benefits of religion? No, of course not, because the kinds of lives that result from lack of exposure to all the religious malarkey are far better in terms of health and longevity. The differences in income and education only emerge statistically when comparing the major religions, but one only has to examine an extreme sect such as the FLDS (polygamous Mormon group) to see firsthand the obvious negative effects of high religiosity. FLDS members suffer from living remotely with low incomes and insufficient access to adequate healthcare combined with the ignorance that encourages behaviors like inbreeding that causes mental and physical disabilities in children.

The average lives of human beings have steadily improved over time as we better understand reality. It makes perfect sense that the more of reality one ignores the worse one will fare.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2013 12:20 AM Percy has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 117 (705707)
08-31-2013 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Percy
08-30-2013 6:07 PM


Re: Back to the Topic
No, of course not, because the kinds of lives that result from lack of exposure to all the religious malarkey are far better in terms of health and longevity.

The point of contention that I have with that, is that the private Catholic grade and high schools that I went to were waaay better than the public alternative. Of course, there was a shit-pile of money pumped into them (in addition the taxes my parents also paid for the public schools, but that's another topic about how that was unfair to them), but that was part of the solution. We's got monies and it works

So are atheists behaving insanely by ignoring all the benefits of religion?

Well, I don't like that word "insane", but I do think there's an irrational element to just "write it all off".

The average lives of human beings have steadily improved over time as we better understand reality. It makes perfect sense that the more of reality one ignores the worse one will fare.

Sometimes we need a good nudging, but I don't think us Catholics are one for ignoring reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Percy, posted 08-30-2013 6:07 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Percy, posted 08-31-2013 9:13 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 117 of 117 (705720)
08-31-2013 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by New Cat's Eye
08-31-2013 12:20 AM


Re: Back to the Topic
Catholic Scientist writes:

The point of contention that I have with that, is that the private Catholic grade and high schools that I went to were waaay better than the public alternative.

I made a halfhearted and unsuccessful effort to find supporting data for the Catholic data point for education, with only around 27% graduating college. A high percentage of Catholic high school graduates go on to college (84.7% according to one source), but of course not all Catholic students attend Catholic high schools, so that's not very helpful. That's as much as I could find out in the couple minutes I allowed myself.

Percy writes:

So are atheists behaving insanely by ignoring all the benefits of religion?

Well, I don't like that word "insane", but I do think there's an irrational element to just "write it all off".

My question was just a paraphrase of the thread's title.

Sometimes we need a good nudging, but I don't think us Catholics are one for ignoring reality.

As some of the posted links have commented, culture is also a significant factor in income and education. The low numbers for US Catholics are probably influenced by its Irish immigrant roots, just as the higher numbers for Unitarians and Episcopalians are by their associations with the higher socio-economic classes in the 18th and 19th centuries.

But that being said, Catholicism does have a number of beliefs not rooted in reality, some shared with other conservative religions, some unique. The Eucharist seems harmless, but family size has a strong inverse influence on income and education.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2013 12:20 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
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