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Author Topic:   Age of mankind, dating, and the flood
Coyote
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Message 166 of 224 (737967)
10-02-2014 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:22 PM


Although scientists invent fictional scenarios, historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

Archaeological data shows there was no global flood at that time.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by djufo, posted 10-02-2014 8:22 PM djufo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 167 of 224 (737980)
10-03-2014 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:22 PM


First Civilizations and Floodplains
Hi djufo and welcome to the fray

- The flood did not cover all land, mostly the coastal areas were the first civilizations were created.

... historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

Do you have any other evidence that these coastal floods occurred at the same time rather than separate individual seasonal or periodic floods?

You realize that this is the time of the "agricultural revolution" when agriculture was developed and became widespread, with social groups moving to river deltas and floodplains because of the fertile soils? Land prone to flooding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution

Can you document the historical texts from 10-13,000 years ago? Curiously my impression was that written documents are rather later in the timeline of civilizations, so any history from that time would be oral, yes?

Enjoy.

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Percy
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Joined: 12-23-2000
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Message 168 of 224 (737981)
10-03-2014 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Coyote
10-02-2014 9:04 PM


-Although scientists invent fictional scenarios, historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

Archaeological data shows there was no global flood at that time.

Djufo's previous point was that the flood didn't cover all land, mostly just coastal areas. My guess is that he's saying the Biblical flood was actually rising sea levels after the last ice age.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
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Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 169 of 224 (737983)
10-03-2014 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Percy
10-03-2014 7:48 AM


Maybe. If he is, then I'm guessing that his big challenge will be to show how high the earth's temperature must have risen, in order to melt enough ice within a short enough period of time, that the rising sea levels would have been called a flood, the world over, rather than a question of "hey, I don't remember those tress in Ugg Wood standing in water last year - is it just me, or are we nearer to the coast now ?"

Of course, you could try to argue that a gradual rise in sea levels could still be named a "flood" in ancient times, but it wouldn't sit well with the rather catastrophic results attributed to it.

It wouldn't recede either, if it was rising sea levels - at least not within the timescales the stories suggest.

I think Djufo faces some fun challenges, if that's his thesis.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 170 of 224 (737986)
10-03-2014 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by vimesey
10-03-2014 8:05 AM


It wouldn't recede either, if it was rising sea levels - at least not within the timescales the stories suggest.

That's why I went with floodplain inhabitation and periodic floods. The challenge then is to show that they occurred at the same time world-wide, and that there was only one flood rather than a number of them.

... I don't remember those tress in Ugg Wood standing in water last year ...

Were those 'gopherwood' trees?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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NoNukes
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Message 171 of 224 (737991)
10-03-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:22 PM


Although scientists invent fictional scenarios, historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

I hope at some point that you will make a post long enough to tell us what your position is on the flood, or creation, or whatever. I'm curious about what you believe, where that comes from, and the historical data you refer to here.

Please pick a topic or two and spend some time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
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Message 172 of 224 (737996)
10-03-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:22 PM


djufo writes:

- Not all humans died during the flood.


Then what was the point of the flood?
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jar
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Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 173 of 224 (738000)
10-03-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:22 PM


if what you say is true then the Biblical floods did not happen.
- Not all humans died during the flood.
- The flood did not cover all land, mostly the coastal areas were the first civilizations were created.

If true then the Biblical flood myths simply did not happen.

- Although scientists invent fictional scenarios, historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

I imagine you actually can provide such historical data?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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djufo
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 174 of 224 (738043)
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


Well, it would be A LOT of information to post in one single thread, but no worries. I have answers for everything. Or so I believe.

The key mistake ALL of you do over and over again, is the use of words such as "believe" and "myth" keep in mind, you grew up brainwashed with those words. You grew up brainwashed with an image that we are monkeys, we evolved from monkeys, you are nothing more than a monkey, and anything exceptional you are able to do is just random occurrence of nature.

Come out of the box. You don't "believe". You either know or do not know. Do not listen or follow those who try to convince you to believe, or convince you to not believe.

"Myth" has never been related to something false, fake, non existent. The misconception of the significance of the word "myth" has been perverted by a bunch of clowns AKA "scientists" who just like a well structured religion, are followers of a sect which at the top has a specific agenda.

The meaning of "myth" is "an attempt to interpret the divine" That is all. No more, no less. So any time you see something cataloged as "myth" by the "experts", your brain automatically relates that to "bullshit", "non-important", "joke" Remove that view. It is put in that bag by the "experts" because either they don't have a clue what it is, it is so beyond their explanation capabilities, or they want to hide something that they consider you are not supposed to know.

As far as the flood, it is too large to post here every single archaeological research and study, but to provide some information, in the early 20th century the ancient cities of Ur, Kish, Shuruppak, were discovered. And this is just to name a few. Now keep in mind, these cities were ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY know before through passages of the bible (Mythology?) the discovery of them definitely closed the mouth of many at that time when they realized it was exactly the same cities mentioned in the bible. All these cities, share one common characteristic. Upon excavation, you find remains of settlements, then you have a layer of ancient mud or thin soil, then 8-13 feet below, you have new remains of civilization. Different carbon dating, although not completely accurate due to the exposure of high radiation levels in the area at that time, suggest evidence of a general flood at multiple different times. Some studies suggest 2,000-3,000 BCE, others suggest 5,000 BCE.

So how we support evidence. Well, all ancient civilizations in the middle east wrote about a great flood in their recent past. More in detail, they specifically explained how and why it happened. Around 10,000-13,000 the planet was still coming out of the last age. The best habitable zone in the planet was of course close to the Equator. This put us EXACTLY where the first human civilizations were created and were the creation took place, mesopotamia. Today southern Iraq. According to ancient data, in those days, a large portion of ice separated from a cap traveling close to the equator, melting, and causing the sea level to raise.

I'm getting lost with all the inquiries, but somebody mentioned that at some point in our past there was an "agricultural revolution" and any information about a flood is so old that would have been just oral, Information from mouth to mouth. LOL. It was not he case. Between 3 and 6, and some put it up to 8,000 years ago, we had the Sumerian civilization. They wrote every single detail of their existence, and like it or not, our existence, in clay tablets. In a language called Sumerian cuneiform. A language with a writing system way more advanced and complex than our modern languages. In those days, there was no such thing as an "agricultural revolution" those are the semantics used by the "experts" to make you "believe" that things just happen by random coincidence. Like a lightning bolt striking the soil and creating life. Sumerians showed up in the picture with advanced farming techniques, writing, the wheel, mathematics and geometry, astronomy, astrology and many other advanced knowledge. They wrote over and over again, they never invented or figured out anything. They receive the knowledge and training from "the heavens" Beings coming down from the heavens (sky, space, remember mythology: and ATTEMPT to interpret the divine, unknowkn) with wings (Again mythology: the only thing that can come down from above in those days is a bird. If a human being comes down from above, therefore HAS to have wings. Again, mythology: attempting to interpret the divine through a process of logic)

Anyways, going back to the flood, your modern common sense tells you "oh, to have a sudden rise of sea levels big enough to cause a flood. the global temperature has to have risen significantly" not necessarily, since we have the alleged big mass of ice coming up to the equator and melting at a fast pace.

So since not all humans died with the flood, then what was the point of it? there is vast information about, it but it will be for a different post, on a different day.


Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 175 of 224 (738052)
10-04-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


Different carbon dating, although not completely accurate due to the exposure of high radiation levels in the area at that time, suggest evidence of a general flood at multiple different times. Some studies suggest 2,000-3,000 BCE, others suggest 5,000 BCE.

This is nonsense. Radiocarbon dates are calibrated against items of known age and any such factors are accounted for. See the various threads here for a lot of good information on the subject.

Also, the folks to find any evidence of a global flood during the past several thousand years would be archaeologists and other scientists who deal with the soil -- and we have not found any such evidence.

We do see evidence of an older flood though, occurring at the end of the last ice age. Google "channeled scablands" for the details. The point of this is that we can see the results of a small flood at the end of the ice age but can't see the results of a purported global flood more recently. That's because the global flood did not happen.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 3:29 PM Coyote has responded

  
djufo
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 176 of 224 (738058)
10-04-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Coyote
10-04-2014 1:52 PM


If you've been reading online. I don't know how you haven't come across article like this http://science.howstuffworks.com/.../storms/great-flood1.htm but that's just one of many. And the only they do is just repeating what ancient civilizations already wrote thousands of years ago. Of course modern "experts" add the assumption that maybe comets struck the planet but that's just science fiction.
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 177 of 224 (738067)
10-04-2014 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by djufo
10-04-2014 3:29 PM


You didn't address a single thing I wrote.

We have archaeological evidence that there was no global flood anywhere near 4,350 years ago. I have personally tested upwards of 100 sites containing that approximate time period and there has been no evidence of a flood in any of them.

Rather, what I see is evidence of continuity in mtDNA, human cultures, fauna and flora, and sedimentation. This is evidence that there was not a flood at that time period.

My colleagues have tested tens of thousands of sites with similar results.

So, don't bother telling me about old myths when I have seen the real evidence first-hand.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 3:29 PM djufo has responded

Replies to this message:
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djufo
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 178 of 224 (738071)
10-04-2014 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Coyote
10-04-2014 4:19 PM


Have you excavated and tested the area of mesopotamia which is the area where the most common historical data of an ancient flood comes from?

P.S. Define "myth"


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 179 of 224 (738076)
10-04-2014 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
... Around 10,000-13,000 ...

When you claimed there was a documented history ...

... Between 3 and 6, and some put it up to 8,000 years ago, we had the Sumerian civilization. They wrote ... a language called Sumerian cuneiform.

Curiously, I don't see 8,000 years being the same as 10,000 to 13,000 years. It's not even close enough to be a rounding error.

... but somebody mentioned that at some point in our past there was an "agricultural revolution" and any information about a flood is so old that would have been just oral, Information from mouth to mouth. ...

And what I said was:

Message 167(RAZD):
(djufr) - The flood did not cover all land, mostly the coastal areas were the first civilizations were created.

... historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

Do you have any other evidence that these coastal floods occurred at the same time rather than separate individual seasonal or periodic floods?

You realize that this is the time of the "agricultural revolution" when agriculture was developed and became widespread, with social groups moving to river deltas and floodplains because of the fertile soils? Land prone to flooding?

Again I point out that you dated the flood to 10-13,000 years ago, but have only provided evidence of a written history at "Between 3 and 6, and some put it up to 8,000 years ago" by your (questionable) undocumented information.

Can you admit to being wrong?

Curiously I don't know of anyone living longer than a thousand years, so by simple observation I note that this means that the "history" of the flood must have been oral history and not written.

Instead of proving me wrong you have shown yourself to be providing misinformation.

... More in detail, they specifically explained how and why it happened. Around 10,000-13,000 the planet was still coming out of the last age. ...

And this is documented in the Sumarian cuniform tablets? Really? Can you provide a link with that specific information?

Anyways, going back to the flood, your modern common sense tells you "oh, to have a sudden rise of sea levels big enough to cause a flood. the global temperature has to have risen significantly" not necessarily, since we have the alleged big mass of ice coming up to the equator and melting at a fast pace.

Perhaps you can also enlighten us how fast the last ice age ended -- how fast the ice melted and flooded the low-lying plains ... and then how that water receded at the end of the flood (as reported in the "history" you refer to) ... people want to know.

The key mistake ALL of you do over and over again, is the use of words such as "believe" and "myth" keep in mind, you grew up brainwashed with those words. You grew up brainwashed with an image that we are monkeys, we evolved from monkeys, you are nothing more than a monkey, and anything exceptional you are able to do is just random occurrence of nature.

I've also asked you how you tell reality from fiction and fantasy, so far all I see is rather uniformed opinion parading as 'truth' when it is really just belief.

It is an interesting aspect of cognitive dissonance that one of the ways to deal with conflicting information is to accuse those that provide the information of being insane, brainwashed, or part of a conspiracy.

Do you want to learn or are you so hide-bound to your beliefs that you cannot permit even the ghost of an idea that you may be wrong ... about a lot of things.

Enjoy

btw -- the first agricultural developments and communities were in the hills, not the coastal areas. Just another tidbit of information that shows your information to be misinformed.

added:

... Different carbon dating, although not completely accurate due to the exposure of high radiation levels in the area at that time, suggest evidence of a general flood at multiple different times. Some studies suggest 2,000-3,000 BCE, others suggest 5,000 BCE.

Oh look -- you've changed the dates that you were so absolutely sure of previously. So one of those dates given with absolute assurance was incorrect.

If you want to discuss carbon dating we have several other threads for that. I'm sure you will fail to provide any real evidence of "high radiation levels" but I can also show you how accurate carbon dating is and how it is validated on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1.

Edited by RAZD, : added


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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djufo
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 180 of 224 (738078)
10-04-2014 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by RAZD
10-04-2014 4:54 PM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
What makes you think that I am the one "discovering" these things? I did not write any of the information about our creation. I am repeating what was written thousands of years ago. Who are you to disprove what our ancestors knew about our origins? all of a sudden we have a bunch of modern nerds coming up with science fiction movies of monkeys learning to write and speak. How do you prove that an "agricultural revolution" started in the hills? LMAO what do you guys smoke to come up with such ridiculous ideas! There was never anything like an "agricultural revolution" lol revolution my **s!

If you would like to educate yourself about history, research and read about the information provided by ancient civilizations. All the answers are there, not in the fictional books dictated and forced by a federal agency (doe)

You have failed to prove a single thing you said. So because I cannot find any remains of your great great great grandfather I should assume by your brilliant logical process that he never existed correct? Any mention of his, is pure myth.


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