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Author Topic:   Age of mankind, dating, and the flood
Larni
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Posts: 3951
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 196 of 224 (738246)
10-07-2014 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
10-05-2014 2:27 PM


I had a long discussion with iano about 'knowing'.

Lots of various levels of 'knowing'.

Who knew?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 10-05-2014 2:27 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 197 of 224 (738314)
10-08-2014 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Percy
10-05-2014 9:57 AM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
This is the first I've heard this claim, so Googling it I could only find references to the Sumerians believing there were 11 planets, not 9. It seems to be based upon this image (click to enlarge):

I think the most important part of the claim is that the Sumerians understood the solar system to be Heliocentric. As for the number of planets, the definition of a planet is at this point in time is a complete mess. If we count Pluto, then we also ought to count bodies like Eris, Makemake, and Ceres that are of comparable size or are larger than Pluto. At least five dwarf planets are currently recognized with a dozen more objects known.

About the only thing that is clear is that nine is the wrong number if we intend to find that the Sumerians had special knowledge of the solar system. No way to justify nine. If we include the moon we ought to include at least Titan, Ganymede, Callisto, and Io. In fact there are 100s of moons in the solar system. But then the Sumerians did not use the number nine. So djufo is wrong, but more detail is needed to evaluate Sumerian knowledge. I'm sure there is plenty o 'Chariot of the Gods' style BS to be found on the subject.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Percy, posted 10-05-2014 9:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Astrophile, posted 12-04-2014 1:53 AM NoNukes has responded

    
djufo
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 198 of 224 (738331)
10-08-2014 11:53 PM


Percy Bravo! You still have that curiosity that has not been absolutely erased from the "scientific" religion. That is how you learn and use common sense to unite dots. I understand other are too late to use intellectual capabilities for the same purpose but perhaps we can educate new generations on reason and logic instead of "belief" of what another average mortal claim to be the absolute truth. All these clowns and "experts" basically want people to "believe" that somehow we are the maximum expression of life in the universe. We are the shit. Nothing or nobody can be better than us. We know it all, and we have it all. Wrong. We are nobody. We are an extremely primitive species still secluded to our own planet. We were with defects (around 1000 genetic defects since human genome was deciphered)

In the Sumerian cylinder you posted, it is interesting. You logic tell you, is not valid, because it shows they "believed" (again the classic word" in 11 celestial bodies. Wrong again. Sumerians did not believe in anything. They had the KNOWLEDGE of 12 celestial bodies. By 12? they count 9 planets, including Pluto, plus the moon 10, the Sun 11 (in the center, just like we know today) plus one more large planet in an elliptical orbit around the sun going all the way out possibly beyond the oort cloud. Another detail. Sumerian always refer to earth as the 7th planet. Why 7th if we are in reality the 3rd rock from the sun? simple. If you're flying from the outside, counting in, earth is the 7th. I didn't say that. They said it so don't blame me. Are they incorrect saying that the sun is the center??, 9 planets around plus the moon around the earth?? why that is not myth? only because you were able to see it?? who are you to question their knowledge. What makes you better than them. What have you achieved, if all your materials and data can be dissolved by nature in a few hundred years while their clay tablets are still intact. They name a 12th planet. Known today as planet x proposed by some as responsible of the disturbances in the orbits of some of the gas giants. Known throughout history and ancient civilizations with multiple names. The destroyer, nemesis to name a couple.


Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2014 4:27 AM djufo has responded
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 10-09-2014 8:22 AM djufo has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 199 of 224 (738336)
10-09-2014 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by djufo
10-08-2014 11:53 PM


By 12? they count 9 planets, including Pluto, plus the moon 10, the Sun 11 (in the center, just like we know today) plus one more large planet in an elliptical orbit around the sun going all the way out possibly beyond the oort cloud.

No one is aware of any planet going out beyond the Oort cloud, so what is your indication that this prediction is correct? And as far as planets out beyond Neptune, there are a number of Pluto sized objects out there. How many of them did the Sumerians manage to find?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by djufo, posted 10-08-2014 11:53 PM djufo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by RAZD, posted 10-09-2014 8:50 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 210 by djufo, posted 10-09-2014 6:09 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 200 of 224 (738338)
10-09-2014 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


The best habitable zone in the planet was of course close to the Equator. This put us EXACTLY where the first human civilizations were created and were the creation took place, mesopotamia. Today southern Iraq.

I suggest peeking at a map or globe while posting. Iraq is nowhere near the equator.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 12:23 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 201 of 224 (738339)
10-09-2014 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:23 PM


The best habitable zone in the planet was of course close to the Equator. This put us EXACTLY where the first human civilizations were created and were the creation took place, mesopotamia. Today southern Iraq.

I suggest peeking at a map or globe while posting. Iraq is nowhere near the equator.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 12:23 PM djufo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Theodoric, posted 10-09-2014 11:59 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16029
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 202 of 224 (738345)
10-09-2014 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by djufo
10-08-2014 11:53 PM


Hi Djufo,

Could you use the little reply button beneath the message you're replying to? When you instead use the General Reply button to reply to a specific message you break the chain of replies, making it difficult to read back through a thread. If you look at the bottom of any message you'll notice two link sections, one section with a link to the message replied to, the other with a list of links to replies. Those links are absent when you use the General Reply button.

djufo writes:

Percy Bravo! You still have that curiosity that has not been absolutely erased from the "scientific" religion. That is how you learn and use common sense to unite dots. I understand other are too late to use intellectual capabilities for the same purpose but perhaps we can educate new generations on reason and logic instead of "belief" of what another average mortal claim to be the absolute truth.

"Be not wise in thine own eyes." (Proverbs 3:7)

We are an extremely primitive species still secluded to our own planet.

Which species are you thinking of when you judge us primitive by comparison?

We were with defects (around 1000 genetic defects since human genome was deciphered)

This might be a garbled form of a factoid you picked up somewhere. Each human baby possesses on average around a hundred mutations, so in the decade since the completion of the Human Genome Project there have been over a hundred billion mutations.

You logic tell you, is not valid, because it shows they "believed" (again the classic word) in 11 celestial bodies. Wrong again. Sumerians did not believe in anything. They had the KNOWLEDGE of 12 celestial bodies.

As I said before, what they thought they knew isn't as important as how they knew it.

By 12 they count 9 planets, including Pluto, plus the moon 10, the Sun 11 (in the center, just like we know today) plus one more large planet in an elliptical orbit around the sun going all the way out possibly beyond the oort cloud.

The same standard applies to this. You think you know which celestial bodies the Sumerians included in their count of 12, but what evidence did you use to conclude this? Why did they count our moon but not Ganymede, which is larger? Why did they count Pluto but not any of the other Pluto-sized planets out that way?

Sumerian always refer to earth as the 7th planet.

The Sumerians believed the Earth to be the 7th planet? It's possible, I guess. I have no reason to doubt this, but I have no reason to doubt any other number you might have claimed. But Googling this I find no support for it. What evidence led you to believe this?

Why 7th if we are in reality the 3rd rock from the sun? simple. If you're flying from the outside, counting in, earth is the 7th. I didn't say that. They said it so don't blame me.

Where did the Sumerians say this?

Are they incorrect saying that the sun is the center?

I can find no evidence that the Sumerians accepted heliocentrism.

Who are you to question their knowledge.

I'm not questioning Sumerian knowledge. I'm questioning your claims about Sumerian knowledge. In the absence of you providing any evidence I will not be able to tell the difference between accurate and inaccurate claims.

They name a 12th planet. Known today as planet x proposed by some as responsible of the disturbances in the orbits of some of the gas giants.

According to the Wikipedia article on Planets beyond Neptune:

Wikipedia writes:

The search was largely abandoned in the early 1990s, when a study of measurements made by the Voyager 2 spacecraft found that the irregularities observed in Uranus's orbit were due to a slight overestimation of Neptune's mass.
...
Today, the astronomical community widely agrees that Planet X, as originally envisioned, does not exist, but the concept of Planet X has been revived by a number of astronomers to explain other anomalies observed in the outer Solar System. In popular culture, and even among some astronomers, Planet X has become a stand-in term for any undiscovered planet in the outer Solar System, regardless of its relationship to Lowell's hypothesis. Other trans-Neptunian planets have also been suggested, based on different evidence. As of March 2014, observations with the WISE telescope have ruled out the possibility of a Saturn-sized object out to 10,000 AU, and a Jupiter-sized or larger object out to 26,000 AU.

Your claims about Sumerian astronomical knowledge are very specific - are these your own interpretations or are you reading them somewhere? If you're passing on information you're reading elsewhere then it might speed things up if instead of serving as a middleman you provided a link or a reference.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by djufo, posted 10-08-2014 11:53 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19085
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 203 of 224 (738347)
10-09-2014 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by NoNukes
10-09-2014 4:27 AM


making up stuff is research
By 12? they count 9 planets, including Pluto, plus the moon 10, the Sun 11 (in the center, just like we know today) plus one more large planet in an elliptical orbit around the sun going all the way out possibly beyond the oort cloud.

No one is aware of any planet going out beyond the Oort cloud, so what is your indication that this prediction is correct?

It is rather predictable the amount of stuff people have made up about the Sumerians -- from the UFO crowd to the astrology crowd.

Doing an internet search on sumerian astronomy and sumerian astrology I found pictures with different numbers of "planets" ...

Anunnaki Sumerian Planets Astrology 2012 Galactic Alignment:

(several with 7 "planets" but none with orbits for said objects) and some with a different number of suns ... ?

Sumerian Artifacts (38 of 53)

Or is that the sun and the moon ... but then what is the crescent ...

And you can also google for Sumeria astronauts ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronaut_hypothesis

quote:
Zecharia Sitchin's series The Earth Chronicles, beginning with The 12th Planet, revolves around Sitchin's unique interpretation of ancient Sumerian and Middle Eastern texts, megalithic sites, and artifacts from around the world.[14][15] He hypothesizes that the gods of old Mesopotamia were actually astronauts from the planet "Nibiru", which Sitchin claims the Sumerians believed to be a remote "12th planet" (counting the Sun, Moon, and Pluto as planets) associated with the god Marduk. According to Sitchin, Nibiru continues to orbit our sun on a 3,600-year elongated orbit. Modern astronomy has found no evidence to support Sitchin's claims.[14]

Such fun

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5292
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 204 of 224 (738359)
10-09-2014 11:54 AM


Was it the first Whole Earth Catalog that had a story running through it? Where ancient Sumerians ate nothing but walnuts and distilled water, and only had sex once a year? But the sex lasted two weeks?
    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


Message 205 of 224 (738362)
10-09-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
10-09-2014 5:28 AM


I have to wonder is this someone else's crap he is spouting or is he coming up with it himself?

Since, seemingly unlike loonies, I have a globe, lets look at where Iraq is. Iraq corresponds with the southern USA. Florida is at a latitude south of Iraq. I suppose in loony land Saudi Arabia and Egypt are at the equator.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2014 5:28 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19085
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 206 of 224 (738376)
10-09-2014 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Theodoric
10-09-2014 11:59 AM


12 months\zodiac constellations ...
I have to wonder is this someone else's crap he is spouting or is he coming up with it himself?

From what I can see there is an abundance of interpretations on the internet. One thing to remember is that Sumerians had a fascination with 12's and 60's -- hence the 12 signs of the zodiac (and they are credited with creating astrology, but it may be they just wrote it down) so those could be 12 gods/celestial objects representing the zodiac rather than planets per se.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Theodoric, posted 10-09-2014 11:59 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2014 3:57 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 207 of 224 (738377)
10-09-2014 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Theodoric
10-09-2014 11:59 AM


Iraq corresponds with the southern USA.

Baghdad is a little bit south of Atlanta... and quite a bit west of course.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Theodoric, posted 10-09-2014 11:59 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 208 of 224 (738378)
10-09-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by RAZD
10-09-2014 3:33 PM


Re: 12 months\zodiac constellations ...
From what I can see there is an abundance of interpretations on the internet.

I had no doubt that this was the case. I bust a gut every time I read the phrase 'ancient data' that describes some stuff somebody fabricated and posted just a few years ago.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by RAZD, posted 10-09-2014 3:33 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by RAZD, posted 10-09-2014 5:17 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19085
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 209 of 224 (738385)
10-09-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by NoNukes
10-09-2014 3:57 PM


Re: 12 months\zodiac constellations ...
I had no doubt that this was the case. I bust a gut every time I read the phrase 'ancient data' that describes some stuff somebody fabricated and posted just a few years ago.

Not so curiously, when I run 'google scholar' on sumerian astronomy I do not find and papers on 12 planets and extra-terrestrial visitors ...

I did find this of interest:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/Sirius1.pdf

Which talks about naked eye observation of two Jupiter moons and an elongated Saturn.

It may be that our modern opinions of the ability of the naked eye are clouded by light pollution and not taking the time to get fully dark adapted.

It may also involve apparent magnification similar to seeing large suns at sunset?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2014 3:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
djufo
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 210 of 224 (738389)
10-09-2014 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by NoNukes
10-09-2014 4:27 AM


How do you know nobody is aware of a large size object beyond the oort cloud? Do you have faith in those who decide what you are allowed to know as the truth?

And again, Sumerians didn't discover anything. They didn't have any equipment or technology nor superman eyes. They specifically say the knowledge was passed by the creators. Don't blame me, don't blame them, they just wrote their daily experiences. If you wanna blame or question somebody, question those who came here and created humans. The proof is this same conversation. We question our own existence and origin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2014 4:27 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Coyote, posted 10-09-2014 6:42 PM djufo has not yet responded
 Message 212 by Percy, posted 10-09-2014 8:06 PM djufo has responded
 Message 213 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2014 9:14 PM djufo has responded
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