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Author Topic:   Syria syrisouly?
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 16 of 50 (706079)
09-05-2013 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by gene90
09-05-2013 5:59 PM


Hello gene90,
Do I deny the logic that the police use violence to suppress violence?
No I do not.
In fact that seems to be how the U.S. traditionally sees itself, as the self appointed police force of the world.
I get the feeling that regardless of what choice is made it will end badly for the administration.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by gene90, posted 09-05-2013 5:59 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ramoss, posted 09-05-2013 9:01 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 24 by gene90, posted 09-06-2013 11:21 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 17 of 50 (706081)
09-05-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 1.61803
09-05-2013 8:38 PM


I don't think you are right. I think that by having Congress authorize even a limited response, Obama has an out. Either Congress does (which I hope it doesn't), and Obama can say he followed the Constitution for a limited strike, or it doesn't, in which case, Obama can say he follow the constitutional process.
In either case, he is making sure that the members of Congress are not playing Tuesday morning quarterbacks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by 1.61803, posted 09-05-2013 8:38 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 10:43 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 50 (706095)
09-06-2013 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
09-04-2013 12:42 PM


Bankrupt
I do not like this war for several reasons.
  • I taken to a vote, I wager that 2/3 or more of our population would not support this war.
  • We simply cant afford any more wars. We have spent all of my and everyone elses rightful retirement dollars, and it seems that we are so far in debt that we cant afford a war.
  • Glen Beck, whom I normally pity, has an interesting Propaganda video on why not to go to war. Curious....

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by ringo, posted 09-04-2013 12:42 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    frako
    Member (Idle past 306 days)
    Posts: 2932
    From: slovenija
    Joined: 09-04-2010


    Message 19 of 50 (706097)
    09-06-2013 2:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by 1.61803
    09-03-2013 4:12 PM


    Is this the best course of action?
    I fail to see the point of how punishing an alleged murderer of his own people by killing more of his own people in the proper Christian western manner is any kind of a sane response.
    If you where king for a day what would you suggest?
    Given that this is a civil ware and there is literally no good guys to chose from, the best choice of actions would be a complete embargo, no weapons in or out. And then let them fight it out amongst themselves. Also humanitarian aid but in a way that makes sure that neither the terr... i mean rebels get any supplies nor the government, but that they are under UN controlll and available to the masses.
    Personally I think is is rather...kind of weird.
    Well alot of us policies are weird like supporting Saddam when he used chemical weapons to kill Iranians but then invading the country because he had said wmds.
    Sort of like, well Junior you broke the rules so your going to have to stand for a whooping. But before I whoop your ass I need to discuss it with your momma. So stand by until we decide exactly what your punishment will be.
    Well its more like one of you 19 kids played with the wrong toy so given that i saw Assad playing with something 90 minutes ago im going to punish him by braking some of his toys and i dont care what mom (the un) thinks.
    Given the track record of the US telling the truth for the past 14 years or the track record of the US telling the truth about why they started a war well since its existence. And that Assad had UN inspectors not far away from the attack site making the gas attack an insane move by him i kind of doubt that he was the one who used the gas.
    That and combined with the desperation of the opposing forces, who have very dubious morals, and for the past while all they herd form the national community that the world will help if chemical weapons are used. Making them the more likely suspect.
    Edited by frako, : No reason given.

    Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
    Click if you dare!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by 1.61803, posted 09-03-2013 4:12 PM 1.61803 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 11:03 AM frako has replied
     Message 26 by gene90, posted 09-06-2013 11:35 AM frako has replied

      
    caffeine
    Member (Idle past 1025 days)
    Posts: 1800
    From: Prague, Czech Republic
    Joined: 10-22-2008


    Message 20 of 50 (706102)
    09-06-2013 4:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 14 by 1.61803
    09-05-2013 5:00 PM


    It would be nice for a bit of international support in this effort other than rhetoric.
    Come you Brits! grow some bollocks.
    The US needs to save face on this one by not appearing to be the only ignorant hawkish brutish country willing to kill in the name of non violence.
    They're not alone. Germany has come out in full-throated support of military action. Not that Germany will do anything about it of course, but they've promised that if the US invades, the German government will be cheering - from a long distance away.
    Francois Hollande is also in favour of military action, and is willing to get his hands dirty. Constitutionally, the French President does have the power to go to war without asking the parliament, but he's under huge pressure to out this to parliamentary vote anyway. Given that a lot of his own party, along with about 2/3 of the French public, are opposed to military action, he'd probably have no more success than the British government did in getting a vote in favour of intervention. Intervening anyway would probably destroy the little public support he has left, but then my left arse-cheek has more chance of winning the next Presidential election than Hollande does, so maybe he's past caring at this point.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by 1.61803, posted 09-05-2013 5:00 PM 1.61803 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 10:57 AM caffeine has not replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1504 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    Message 21 of 50 (706123)
    09-06-2013 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by ramoss
    09-05-2013 9:01 PM


    Hello Ramoss,
    Ramoss writes:
    I don't think you are right.
    Maybe not, but look at the track record.
    I think it was Congressman Alan Grayson (D) who said something to the effect.."if President Obama ended world hunger tomorrow, Republican house members would blame him for contributing to global over population."
    Ramoss writes:
    In either case, he is making sure that the members of Congress are not playing Tuesday morning quarterbacks.
    Heh, that wont prevent them.
    Obama just needs to do what he feels is the right thing and who gives a crap what congress thinks at this point. They are already back peddling they're initial support.
    It is just sad. I was very affected seeing the footage of those people suffering the effects of nerve agent. I support the presidents stance on this.

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by ramoss, posted 09-05-2013 9:01 PM ramoss has not replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1504 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    Message 22 of 50 (706124)
    09-06-2013 10:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by caffeine
    09-06-2013 4:46 AM


    Hi Caffeine,
    Caffeine writes:
    but they've promised that if the US invades, the German government will be cheering - from a long distance away.
    * Hahhhha! this made me chuckle.*

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by caffeine, posted 09-06-2013 4:46 AM caffeine has not replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1504 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    Message 23 of 50 (706126)
    09-06-2013 11:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by frako
    09-06-2013 2:58 AM


    frako writes:
    Given the track record of the US telling the truth for the past 14 years or the track record of the US telling the truth about why they started a war well since its existence. And that Assad had UN inspectors not far away from the attack site making the gas attack an insane move by him i kind of doubt that he was the one who used the gas.
    That and combined with the desperation of the opposing forces, who have very dubious morals, and for the past while all they herd form the national community that the world will help if chemical weapons are used. Making them the more likely suspect.
    President Putin...is that you?

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by frako, posted 09-06-2013 2:58 AM frako has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by frako, posted 09-06-2013 11:43 AM 1.61803 has replied

      
    gene90
    Member (Idle past 3823 days)
    Posts: 1610
    Joined: 12-25-2000


    Message 24 of 50 (706127)
    09-06-2013 11:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 16 by 1.61803
    09-05-2013 8:38 PM


    Well, there is no good option here. I tend to favor a small strike, aimed at Assad's palaces and the specific military units that appeared to launch the attack. But this would serve little purpose other than a personal, punitive action against Assad. I only advocate that to reinforce behavioral norms.
    But Assad seems fated to win. In additional to the many bystanders we will kill with our own missiles, we could easily do enough damage to the regime to prolong an awful war, in which nearly 1,000 people are dieing by conventional means in an average week. To punish an atrocity in which 1,400 were killed?
    If chemical weapons could end the war tomorrow with only a couple of tens of thousands killed, some might interpret chemical weapons as a moral imperative for Assad. I do not, but it could be argued.
    I agree with whoever it was that said that they don't envy Obama having to make this decision. Humanitarian concerns and political ones (reaffirming norms of behavior) are seriously at odds.
    The difference between the US and the police, of course, is that violence done by the police (kidnapping and incarcerating people is inherently violent) is legitimized by nations through various rituals (elections, jurisprudence, etc). The US does not have that universally recognized legitimacy outside it's own borders to punish bad behavior not directed at itself. The best we can do is try to scare up a coalition--as you said a bit differently--of enough countries to show something of an international consensus. That just isn't happening. We should not attack alone.
    I think that the international community should try to come up with stable expectations of how states should behave in their own borders. At one end, we might just declare state sovereignty to be absolute and be done with it. Or we could lay out a series of expectations and examples of punitive measures. But they must be consistent, so that even 'bad guys' that don't like it know exactly what they can get away with and what they can't. Most of our wars lately seem to come about by misunderstandings on that point, usually caused by sudden changes in the norms.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by 1.61803, posted 09-05-2013 8:38 PM 1.61803 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 11:35 AM gene90 has not replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1504 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    (1)
    Message 25 of 50 (706128)
    09-06-2013 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by gene90
    09-06-2013 11:21 AM


    Hi gene90,
    I agree with what you said.
    The US has a long way to go in redeveloping it's credibilty.
    I can only hope that cooler heads always prevail.
    Gassing people is not the end all as biological weapons are also of concern. If the world stands by and bears witness to the indisciminate use of such weapons shame on all of us. imo.

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by gene90, posted 09-06-2013 11:21 AM gene90 has not replied

      
    gene90
    Member (Idle past 3823 days)
    Posts: 1610
    Joined: 12-25-2000


    Message 26 of 50 (706129)
    09-06-2013 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by frako
    09-06-2013 2:58 AM


    quote:
    And that Assad had UN inspectors not far away from the attack site making the gas attack an insane move by him i kind of doubt that he was the one who used the gas.
    I see no proof either way, but Occam's Razor would hold that the gas attacks were more likely carried out by the side that is known to have chemical weapons and the technical capacity to use them and was in fact attacking the same places with conventional weaponry at the time of the chemical attack, and not the side that is not known to have CW, or the ability to use CW, and which was on the receiving end of the attack.
    I don't think that the UN inspectors are or ever were of any concern to Assad. As long as the regime kept them away from the site they were of no use at all. After bombing the areas that were gassed for a few days, and after word got out that foreign intelligence agencies already had samples, he did let them in. Then somebody shot at them once or twice to keep them from getting too comfortable.
    We're having this discussion not because of the inspectors, but because Assad underestimated the propaganda value of the videos that immediately hit the internet, and probably had no idea how thoroughly Damascus is being worked by foreign intelligence agencies.
    Finally, we can't say that it was "insane" of Assad to carry out that attack. Most of the usual suspects have refused to intervene. The President has put it up to Congress. Even if the attack eventually happens, it will be "limited." We don't want to topple his government, and Assad himself will almost certainly survive his miscalculation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by frako, posted 09-06-2013 2:58 AM frako has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by frako, posted 09-06-2013 12:15 PM gene90 has replied

      
    frako
    Member (Idle past 306 days)
    Posts: 2932
    From: slovenija
    Joined: 09-04-2010


    Message 27 of 50 (706130)
    09-06-2013 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by 1.61803
    09-06-2013 11:03 AM


    President Putin...is that you?
    LOL you got me
    There is also alot of stuff on the net that cast doubt on Assad being the one who used the gas.
    Like the news article of Dale Gavlak 20 year veteran reporter for the middle east: Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack
    Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack
    There are videos made by the rebels that don cast them in a very nice light.
    Exclaimer: Verry mature content people being killed, human harts eaten, bunnies gassed etc viewer discretion is advised.
    And loads more like rebels being caught with sarin near the Turkish boarder ...
    Now who do you think would gas those people a dictator who is winning the ware or those morally dubious rebels who are desperate for outside help.

    Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
    Click if you dare!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 11:03 AM 1.61803 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 12:08 PM frako has replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1504 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    (1)
    Message 28 of 50 (706133)
    09-06-2013 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by frako
    09-06-2013 11:43 AM


    Your information is dated.
    It was Obama in the library with the candlestick.

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by frako, posted 09-06-2013 11:43 AM frako has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by frako, posted 09-06-2013 12:17 PM 1.61803 has not replied

      
    frako
    Member (Idle past 306 days)
    Posts: 2932
    From: slovenija
    Joined: 09-04-2010


    Message 29 of 50 (706135)
    09-06-2013 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by gene90
    09-06-2013 11:35 AM


    Ok think about it another way say that the tea party starts an armed revolution against the government demanding everything they stand for from creation being taught in school to a state religion to the execution of atheists. Then one day in that revolution someone films a gas attack in one of your cities then without any evidence on who did the attack the government or the rebels Europe china and Russia decide its time to act against your government that is killing people.

    Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
    Click if you dare!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by gene90, posted 09-06-2013 11:35 AM gene90 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by gene90, posted 09-06-2013 12:47 PM frako has replied

      
    frako
    Member (Idle past 306 days)
    Posts: 2932
    From: slovenija
    Joined: 09-04-2010


    Message 30 of 50 (706136)
    09-06-2013 12:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by 1.61803
    09-06-2013 12:08 PM


    Your information is dated.
    Yea and the information your government gave um Assad shot some missiles then 90 minutes later we got reports of a gas attack. Equal to you farted yesterday something smells today in my house.

    Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
    Click if you dare!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by 1.61803, posted 09-06-2013 12:08 PM 1.61803 has not replied

      
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