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Author Topic:   Flat Earth Society
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 91 of 119 (819284)
09-08-2017 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Porkncheese
09-08-2017 4:40 AM


Re: Crepuscular rays
Porkncheese responds to me:

quote:
All your questions

Huh? You're the one with the questions. What are you talking about?

quote:
are answered in the link i provided including practical demonstrations.

Huh? I'm not here to engage in argument by footnote. You're the one with the objections. You need to present them for yourself.

Use your words.

My post has already answered all the objections raised in that video. So now what?

Time for you to use your words and answer the question put to you: Exactly what is your objection?

Be specific.

I have one expected question, so let me respond with a question of my own:

What's the difference between rays you see in the sky and the rays through a piece of cardboard at your feet? More specifically, where are you in relation to the ray on the left versus the ray on the right? How close are they to each other? How might the visible appearance of those rays be affected by your position with respect to them?

Are you still having trouble projecting a three-dimensional scenario into two dimensions?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Porkncheese, posted 09-08-2017 4:40 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 09-08-2017 8:33 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 119 (819285)
09-08-2017 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Porkncheese
09-08-2017 9:36 AM


Re: Crepuscular rays
Porkncheese writes:

quote:
And even if we simply dissmiss their evidence as garbage or whatever I don't think perspective can account for such a wide spread of rays covering almost 180 degrees as shown here

Except that's precisely what perspective accounts for:

Question: Where are you in relation to the ray on the right compared to the ray on the left? How far away is it? From whence does it originate?

And more importantly, as I directly asked you: Where does it go? If you were to track it across the sky (that is, turn around), whither does it go?

Exactly how does a straight ray behave? Surely you aren't saying that the gravitational pull of the earth is significantly affecting these rays? Besides, if it were, shouldn't those rays be pulled in rather than splayed out?

So we're back to the question you have avoided:

Where do those rays go?

And you have some more to answer:

Where are you in relation to those rays? Where is the one on the left compared to the one on the right?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Porkncheese, posted 09-08-2017 9:36 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29608
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 93 of 119 (819286)
09-08-2017 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Rrhain
09-08-2017 8:23 PM


Re: Crepuscular rays
Is FlatLand still required reading in Middle School?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Rrhain, posted 09-08-2017 8:23 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 94 of 119 (819293)
09-09-2017 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Porkncheese
09-08-2017 12:33 PM


Re: Crepuscular rays
According to google its 149.6 million km.

That was not Ringo's question. Rather, his question in Message 84 was:

Ringo writes:

How far away do they think the sun is?

I am much older than you are by nearly half a century. Somewhere in the mid-1980's Atari gaming consoles transitioned from 8-bit microprocessors to 16-bit microprocessors. The advertising hype was to tout their gaming systems as being faster because they were 16-bit instead of 8-bit -- ignoring the simple fact that no new hardware advantage has any effect unless the software can take advantage of it. The catch-phrase in their TV commercials was, "Do the Math". So now whenever a creationist makes any kind of appeal to a mathematical calculation, my response is, "Do the Math". The creationists fail each and every time.

Getting back to Ringo's question. Creationists lie. They always do, because their claims are contrary to fact, so any truthful statement would contradict their own party line. At the same time, I would like to believe, most creationists do not realize that they are lying.

So then, do please answer Ringo's simple and sincere question: How far away do the folk making that claim think the sun is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Porkncheese, posted 09-08-2017 12:33 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 95 of 119 (819315)
09-09-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Porkncheese
09-08-2017 2:44 PM


Re: Crepuscular rays
Porkncheese writes:

What silver bullet?


A silver bullet is a magic weapon - one shot and you win. My point was that you can't have one magic argument against a flat earth or against evolution or against anything else. One point against it doesn't defeat it.

You don't have to take that as a personal insult.

Prokncheese writes:

So far no one has helped me understand anything apart from this stupid war.


The only one who thinks its a war is you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Porkncheese, posted 09-08-2017 2:44 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 96 of 119 (819365)
09-10-2017 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rrhain
09-08-2017 8:15 PM


Re: Do the Math!
Galileo would have been correct for objects falling in a vacuum. However in air you get air resistance which alters the results; and the faster they fall the greater the air resistance, until the object reaches terminal velocity.

Of course with objects like cannon balls of different sizes this effect is relatively small and would not have been detectable to 16th century observers. In a fluid such as air two balls connected by a string will have a mass equal to the sum of the parts but the combined object is a different shape to the the individual objects.

Assuming the same shape and density;
At t=0 the two balls will have zero speed and hence zero air resistance and each will start with the same acceleration. As speed increases air resistance will increase and will have relatively more effect on the smaller ball which will then fall slower than the other. When the string becomes taut it will then apply additional acceleration to the smaller ball and retard the heavier one. The combined object will then fall at a speed somewhere between that of the two balls individually.

Then you get the added complication that the second ball will be in the wake of the second. The tension in the string will always have to be T>=0 otherwise they will start to separate. Conceivably you could get a combination such that the combined object will fall faster than either of the two separate objects.

However, as I have said, these effects would have not been observable for 16th century observers. Similarly the inaccuracies of Newton's laws of motion were not observable until centuries later.

So Galileo was wrong, Newton was wrong, and Neil deGrasse Tyson was wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rrhain, posted 09-08-2017 8:15 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Rrhain, posted 09-10-2017 7:34 PM CRR has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 97 of 119 (819366)
09-10-2017 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Porkncheese
09-08-2017 2:44 PM


Re: Crepuscular rays
Porkncheese writes:

What silver bullet?


Must be a reference to the Lone Ranger ;-)

Have you seen the movie where the Lone Ranger goes to Canada? It's called "On to Toronto, Tonto, Pronto!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Porkncheese, posted 09-08-2017 2:44 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-10-2017 2:21 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 98 of 119 (819393)
09-10-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by CRR
09-10-2017 6:12 AM


Re: Crepuscular rays
CRR writes:

Must be a reference to the Lone Ranger ;-)


It's a reference to the Wolfman.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 6:12 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 09-10-2017 2:38 PM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 99 of 119 (819395)
09-10-2017 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
09-10-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Crepuscular rays
It's a reference to a cure for syphilis circa 1900 by Paul Ehrlich. "Magic bullet" is synonymous.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-10-2017 2:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 09-10-2017 2:45 PM dwise1 has not yet responded
 Message 107 by 1.61803, posted 09-13-2017 1:27 PM dwise1 has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 100 of 119 (819396)
09-10-2017 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by dwise1
09-10-2017 2:38 PM


Re: Crepuscular rays
dwise1 writes:

It's a reference to a cure for syphilis circa 1900 by Paul Ehrlich. "Magic bullet" is synonymous.


Silver bullets go back to the Brothers Grimm, etc.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 09-10-2017 2:38 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 101 of 119 (819418)
09-10-2017 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Porkncheese
09-08-2017 10:57 AM


Re: Crepuscular rays
The rays are parallel but some will pass to the left of the observer and some will pass to the right. Due to perspective these then appear to diverge from a common point.

Does that help?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Porkncheese, posted 09-08-2017 10:57 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6192
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 102 of 119 (819419)
09-10-2017 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by CRR
09-10-2017 6:08 AM


Re: Do the Math!
CRR responds to me:

quote:
Galileo would have been correct for objects falling in a vacuum.

And did he or did he not understand that? Have you read his works, particularly on falling bodies?

quote:
However in air you get air resistance which alters the results; and the faster they fall the greater the air resistance, until the object reaches terminal velocity.

Nice try. That's my argument to you. You *do* recall that I directly asked you about this, yes? Message 55, in case you forgot.

quote:
When the string becomes taut it will then apply additional acceleration to the smaller ball and retard the heavier one. The combined object will then fall at a speed somewhere between that of the two balls individually.

Really? You don't think the tension caused by the string might affect the orientation of the objects with respect to their motion through the air, thus altering their velocity?

What falls faster through the air: A skydiver whose axis from head to toe is perpendicular to the direction of motion or one whose axis is parallel?

See, this is why you keep stumbling. You're ignoring the very thing that Galileo understood.

And all because you don't actually understand the experiment Galileo was proposing.

quote:
However, as I have said, these effects would have not been observable for 16th century observers.

Strange...Galileo observed it directly. That's why he talked about it.

This is a direct question. If you deign to respond to this post, I specifically request that you answer this one question:

Have you read Galileo's work?

Your entire response history regarding this seems to be predicated upon a fallacious understanding of what Galileo wrote. So I really want to know:

Have you read Galileo's work?

quote:
So Galileo was wrong

No, he wasn't. It is clear you haven't read his work and thus don't understand what he actually said.

quote:
Newton was wrong

No, he wasn't. More accurately, his original point that force is the derivation of momentum with respect to time is correct. The error was in assuming a linear rather than relative universe such that F = dp/dt then reduces to ma. Even in a relative universe, F = dp/dt is still correct.

quote:
and Neil deGrasse Tyson was wrong.

No, he wasn't.

You clearly don't understand what he said or was referring to.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 6:08 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 10:00 PM Rrhain has responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 103 of 119 (819426)
09-10-2017 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Rrhain
09-10-2017 7:34 PM


Re: Do the Math!
If you deign to respond to this post, I specifically request that you answer this one question:

Nah, it's not worth it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Rrhain, posted 09-10-2017 7:34 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Pressie, posted 09-11-2017 6:50 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 106 by Rrhain, posted 09-11-2017 7:20 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1824
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 104 of 119 (819437)
09-11-2017 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by CRR
09-10-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Do the Math!
Hey, seeing that you don't want to answer that, then two other questions?

1. Are you able to quantify genetic information?
2. Does a pig have more or less genetic information than a cow?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : For the heck of it, an off-topic banner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 10:00 PM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 105 of 119 (819472)
09-11-2017 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Pressie
09-11-2017 6:50 AM


Re: Do the Math!
3. Are elephants and tapirs the same kind?
4. Why are pigs a seperate kind to dogs?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Another off-topic banner.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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