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Author Topic:   Relevance of origins to modern science
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 38 of 124 (707256)
09-25-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Ra3MaN
09-25-2013 6:26 AM


And yet "gap" questions can be ignored until someone cares to study them.
So what's your point? People have chosen to study those questions, and now they cannot be ignored. Exactly what are you advocating here. Are you saying that scientists are a bunch of trouble makers, or in league with Satan?
A really scary thing that I can't get my head around, is that neither of us can perform in situ studies to show bio divergence, or stellar formation and the like
So you believe the only way to study stellar formation is to build one in a lab? Not being able to do so scares you? Just what do you mean to say here?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-25-2013 6:26 AM Ra3MaN has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-26-2013 4:38 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 124 (707439)
09-27-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
09-27-2013 8:14 AM


beliefs. But the origin of life and the age of the Earth have nothing to do with your relationship with God.
Apparently he holds a belief that such things do affect his relationship with God. He may well have to give up at least that belief, and the process can be painful. We've seen at least one other participant here go through that process and it involved a lot of tantrums and fits.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 8:14 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 4:24 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 76 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:00 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 124 (707494)
09-27-2013 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
09-27-2013 4:24 PM


Right, but that's just another of his mistaken beliefs and not a religious belief.
I respectfully disagree. Belief in the Bible as literally true and as nigh on an object of worth is indeed a sincere religious belief for lots of people. Such is evident in the postings of any number of people here. Faith goes so far as to designate people who don't follow her interpretation of the Bible as non-Christions.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 4:24 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 9:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 124 (707518)
09-27-2013 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
09-27-2013 9:06 PM


I agree that he has much company when he confounds spirituality with belief in things having nothing to do with spirituality.
Being spiritual is not the same as being religious.
Your view leads to the conclusion that a belief that God created the universe was created in seven days and in the order and method described by Genesis is not a religious belief at all.
I think a definition of religion that produces such a conclusion is non-standard.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 9:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 09-28-2013 6:55 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 124 (707519)
09-27-2013 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
09-27-2013 9:06 PM


Yikes.
Edited by NoNukes, : Remove duplicate

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 9:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 124 (707584)
09-28-2013 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
09-28-2013 6:55 AM


What defines a legitimate religious belief?
A legitimate belief? I'm sure I don't want to go there.
But a sincere belief is certainly not a belief that cause you to suffer cognitive on a near daily basis. I wonder if Rman is wrestling with that.
But clearly none of those beliefs I mentioned have anything to do with one's personal relationship with God, with spirituality.
I'd agree that those beliefs need not affect one's belief in God, but people do claim to believe that if the Bible is not completely literally true, then it is useless. To the extent that such a beliefs are sincerely held, then the truth will affect their relationship with God.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 09-28-2013 6:55 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 1:25 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 124 (707604)
09-29-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
09-29-2013 1:25 AM


If someone believes God would be angry at them for believing that the Earth is ancient, is that a religious belief? Most would say yes.
But you wouldn't, I assume. And yet we are talking about a belief in an inerrant magical Bible that is taught and preached in their churches.
So we shouldn't go there.
Which I take to mean that we should let people define their own religious beliefs. The only real question is whether they are sincere about them. In practice, nobody actually says that God does not want them to step on sidewalk cracks.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 1:25 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 9:56 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 124 (707622)
09-29-2013 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
09-29-2013 9:56 AM


you yourself said you wouldn't go there.
I said I would not question the legitimacy of a particular religious belief. I assume instead that it is sincerely held and incorrect, but I am not sure whether that establishes it as illegitimate or legitimate. If you want my impression of stepping on sidewalk cracks as a religious belief, I can answer that it is not a belief anyone holds and so it is not a legitimate religious belief. It is instead something you made up.
I was reading about the Scopes trial today and I came across this in Wikipedia:
quote:
The trial publicized the Fundamentalist—Modernist Controversy, which set modernists, who said evolution was consistent with religion, against fundamentalists, who said the word of God as revealed in the Bible took priority over all human knowledge. The case was thus seen as both a theological contest and a trial on whether modern science regarding the creation-evolution controversy should be taught in schools.
I don't have any doubt that Creation week is a religious belief in the sense expressed above, and neither do most people. I'm not sure anyone other than you does. What I don't understand is how you avoid such a conclusion other than by not reaching any conclusion at all.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 9:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 7:41 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 124 (707703)
09-30-2013 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Ra3MaN
09-30-2013 2:00 AM


However, to say that there is no extra-dimensional creator since science refutes the existence of a God is a more of statement that I would base my thought on.
Does science say anything about that topic at all? Science does not refute the existence of God. Science does do is provide evidence for some facts that conflicts with some beliefs about God. If you happen to hold those beliefs and you also work with science, you'll have to resolve that issue in your own way.
Despite my disagreement with Percy's claim that religious beliefs do not conflict with science, I think we agree that dropping mistaken beliefs need not interfere with your relationship with God.
And I'm not an atheist.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:00 AM Ra3MaN has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 2:40 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 83 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:13 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 124 (707713)
09-30-2013 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Percy
09-30-2013 2:40 PM


That's not my position, but I think it's a minor side issue in this discussion.
Sorry about that. I did mistate your position.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 2:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 124 (707788)
10-01-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 7:08 AM


Activities? Drugs? sexual orientation? Education? violence?
Think about what you are actually asking here? Are you suggesting that you chose not to be gay or go to do drugs because you thought you might go to hell?
As far as education is concerned, did you see any atheists with you at college?
Seriously. I'm a Christian, but the reason I don't want to screw boys is because its icky.
I don't think you've thought this through. Just how often do you think about the 10 commandments explicitly when you decide not to steal, kill, or fornicate with a friend's wife?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Ra3MaN has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 9:27 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 124 (707974)
10-03-2013 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Ra3MaN
10-02-2013 7:26 AM


Pressie writes:
You're either a POE or a YEC (crazy as can be)
Ra3man writes:
I am still new to this forum, could you please explain these acronyms?
YEC = Young Earth Creationist. This is someone who believes that the Earth was created by God a few thousand years ago.
To call someone a POE is to call them a fraud. The term is derived from a statement by Nathan Poe, now known as Poe's law and quoted below
quote:
Without a blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of extremism or fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing
At times when reading your posts I have difficulty believing someone could be so naive without deliberate effort. It is only your willingness to acknowledge error that convinces me otherwise.
That material is ancient.
It's also hilarious. I'm going to resist the urge to quote from it here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-02-2013 7:26 AM Ra3MaN has not replied

  
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