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Author Topic:   Relevance of origins to modern science
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 61 of 124 (707439)
09-27-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
09-27-2013 8:14 AM


beliefs. But the origin of life and the age of the Earth have nothing to do with your relationship with God.

Apparently he holds a belief that such things do affect his relationship with God. He may well have to give up at least that belief, and the process can be painful. We've seen at least one other participant here go through that process and it involved a lot of tantrums and fits.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 8:14 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 4:24 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 76 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:00 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 62 of 124 (707491)
09-27-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 11:12 AM


NoNukes writes:

Apparently he holds a belief that such things do affect his relationship with God.

Right, but that's just another of his mistaken beliefs and not a religious belief.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 11:12 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 4:46 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 63 of 124 (707494)
09-27-2013 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
09-27-2013 4:24 PM


Right, but that's just another of his mistaken beliefs and not a religious belief.

I respectfully disagree. Belief in the Bible as literally true and as nigh on an object of worth is indeed a sincere religious belief for lots of people. Such is evident in the postings of any number of people here. Faith goes so far as to designate people who don't follow her interpretation of the Bible as non-Christions.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 4:24 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 9:06 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 64 of 124 (707516)
09-27-2013 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 4:46 PM


I agree that he has much company when he confounds spirituality with belief in things having nothing to do with spirituality.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 4:46 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 9:51 PM Percy has responded
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 9:51 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 65 of 124 (707518)
09-27-2013 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
09-27-2013 9:06 PM


I agree that he has much company when he confounds spirituality with belief in things having nothing to do with spirituality.

Being spiritual is not the same as being religious.

Your view leads to the conclusion that a belief that God created the universe was created in seven days and in the order and method described by Genesis is not a religious belief at all.

I think a definition of religion that produces such a conclusion is non-standard.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 9:06 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 09-28-2013 6:55 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 66 of 124 (707519)
09-27-2013 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
09-27-2013 9:06 PM


Yikes.

Edited by NoNukes, : Remove duplicate


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-27-2013 9:06 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 67 of 124 (707532)
09-28-2013 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 9:51 PM


What defines a legitimate religious belief? Is a universe created in six days (not seven) a religious belief? Is not eating meat on Fridays? If someone out there has what they claim is a religious belief to not step on cracks in the sidewalk, is it truly a religious belief that the rest us must accept as legitimate? I'm not addressing such questions.

But clearly none of those beliefs I mentioned have anything to do with one's personal relationship with God, with spirituality. I know there are many people who disagree, but that doesn't make it any less true.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 9:51 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by sfs, posted 09-28-2013 8:27 AM Percy has responded
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 09-28-2013 5:25 PM Percy has responded

    
sfs
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 68 of 124 (707533)
09-28-2013 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
09-28-2013 6:55 AM


quote:

What defines a legitimate religious belief?


Nothing. There are just religious beliefs, with no standard to define which are legitimate. (Well, maybe God gets to decide, but we have no objective means for determining his opinion on the subject.)

quote:

Is a universe created in six days (not seven) a religious belief?


Undoubtedly -- as the U.S. courts have noted.

quote:

Is not eating meat on Fridays?


That's a religious practice. The belief that one should refrain from meat on Fridays is a religious belief.

quote:

If someone out there has what they claim is a religious belief to not step on cracks in the sidewalk, is it truly a religious belief that the rest us must accept as legitimate?


If someone actually holds the belief, then it's a religious belief. (Deciding whether someone really holds that belief is a different question.) What you mean by "legitimate" here I don't know.

quote:

But clearly none of those beliefs I mentioned have anything to do with one's personal relationship with God, with spirituality. I know there are many people who disagree, but that doesn't make it any less true.


Which is to say, you've defined your religious beliefs as the only legitimate ones.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 09-28-2013 6:55 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 09-28-2013 11:30 AM sfs has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 69 of 124 (707542)
09-28-2013 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by sfs
09-28-2013 8:27 AM


sfs writes:

Which is to say, you've defined your religious beliefs as the only legitimate ones.

I didn't raise the issue of how to define religious beliefs, and it's not a question I'm interested in addressing. I did note the problem of classifying as a religious belief anything that someone somewhere happens to claim as a religious belief.

My comment was about the bearing any particular belief (and it doesn't have to be religious) has on spirituality and one's relationship with God. I acknowledge that there are many out there who believe one can't have a personal relationship with God while also believing in, for example, an ancient Earth, but that's just another mistaken belief.

Modifying that slightly to make the silliness aspect of it a bit more clear, there might be someone who believes that one can't have a personal relationship with God while believing that Fords are better than Chevys, and this might be their deeply held religious belief, but this is just another mistaken belief. They and you and NoNukes can call it a religious belief if you like and conclude that therefore I'm telling them their religious beliefs are wrong, but I'm not interested in ceding all territory claimed by the religious to the religious, including simple rationality in this case, and it's still mistaken.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by sfs, posted 09-28-2013 8:27 AM sfs has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 70 of 124 (707584)
09-28-2013 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
09-28-2013 6:55 AM


What defines a legitimate religious belief?

A legitimate belief? I'm sure I don't want to go there.

But a sincere belief is certainly not a belief that cause you to suffer cognitive on a near daily basis. I wonder if Rman is wrestling with that.

But clearly none of those beliefs I mentioned have anything to do with one's personal relationship with God, with spirituality.

I'd agree that those beliefs need not affect one's belief in God, but people do claim to believe that if the Bible is not completely literally true, then it is useless. To the extent that such a beliefs are sincerely held, then the truth will affect their relationship with God.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 09-28-2013 6:55 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 1:25 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 71 of 124 (707603)
09-29-2013 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by NoNukes
09-28-2013 5:25 PM


NoNukes writes:

A legitimate belief? I'm sure I don't want to go there.

Yes, that's exactly the point. If someone believes God would be angry at them for believing that the Earth is ancient, is that a religious belief? Most would say yes. But if someone believes God would be angry at them for stepping on cracks in sidewalks, is that a religious belief? Or is it pathological? Well, now you have to ask what is a legitimate religious belief so that you can know when you're telling someone their religious beliefs are wrong (which is what I've been accused of) and when you're correcting mistaken beliefs.

So we shouldn't go there. If someone holds a mistaken belief, then we should explain why their belief is mistaken. The religious claim is just extraneous baggage. That doesn't mean people don't suffer and struggle with their religious beliefs, and in many cases those beliefs are part of their makeup and can't change, but that doesn't mean they're not mistaken or that they shouldn't be challenged (particularly given fundamentalist efforts to influence science education) or that challenging them is equivalent to committing the social faux pas of telling someone their religious beliefs are wrong.

The important message for Ra3MaN is that he's gotten away from what's important.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 09-28-2013 5:25 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2013 9:31 AM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 72 of 124 (707604)
09-29-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
09-29-2013 1:25 AM


If someone believes God would be angry at them for believing that the Earth is ancient, is that a religious belief? Most would say yes.

But you wouldn't, I assume. And yet we are talking about a belief in an inerrant magical Bible that is taught and preached in their churches.

So we shouldn't go there.

Which I take to mean that we should let people define their own religious beliefs. The only real question is whether they are sincere about them. In practice, nobody actually says that God does not want them to step on sidewalk cracks.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 1:25 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 9:56 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 73 of 124 (707606)
09-29-2013 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NoNukes
09-29-2013 9:31 AM


NoNukes writes:

If someone believes God would be angry at them for believing that the Earth is ancient, is that a religious belief? Most would say yes.

But you wouldn't, I assume.

I think I've said several times now that I'm not making such judgments, and you yourself said you wouldn't go there. My whole email was an explanation of why I feel this way, I don't understand why you're not getting it, as here:

NoNoNukes writes:

In practice, nobody actually says that God does not want them to step on sidewalk cracks.

That isn't the point, is it. It's a rhetorical point about how one judges which religious beliefs should be respected. Religious beliefs run the full gamut and such judgments aren't possible. But isn't believing that such judgments *are* possible the reason I'm being accused of telling Ra3MaN that his religious beliefs are wrong? Or was it merely being noted so that I would understand why Ra3MaN might be very resistant to my approach because *he* believes I'm telling him his religious beliefs are wrong.

Telling Ra3MaN that his concerns about science have nothing to with spirituality is not telling him his religious beliefs are wrong. It's only telling him he has some mistaken notions and that his attention is not focused on what's important.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2013 9:31 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2013 3:41 PM Percy has responded
 Message 77 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:39 AM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 74 of 124 (707622)
09-29-2013 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
09-29-2013 9:56 AM


you yourself said you wouldn't go there.

I said I would not question the legitimacy of a particular religious belief. I assume instead that it is sincerely held and incorrect, but I am not sure whether that establishes it as illegitimate or legitimate. If you want my impression of stepping on sidewalk cracks as a religious belief, I can answer that it is not a belief anyone holds and so it is not a legitimate religious belief. It is instead something you made up.

I was reading about the Scopes trial today and I came across this in Wikipedia:

quote:
The trial publicized the Fundamentalist–Modernist Controversy, which set modernists, who said evolution was consistent with religion, against fundamentalists, who said the word of God as revealed in the Bible took priority over all human knowledge. The case was thus seen as both a theological contest and a trial on whether modern science regarding the creation-evolution controversy should be taught in schools.

I don't have any doubt that Creation week is a religious belief in the sense expressed above, and neither do most people. I'm not sure anyone other than you does. What I don't understand is how you avoid such a conclusion other than by not reaching any conclusion at all.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 9:56 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 7:41 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16329
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 75 of 124 (707640)
09-29-2013 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by NoNukes
09-29-2013 3:41 PM


Since explaining what I really think doesn't seem to be helping, there's little point continuing.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2013 3:41 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
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