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Author Topic:   Relevance of origins to modern science
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 76 of 124 (707658)
09-30-2013 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 11:12 AM


Hi Nonukes,

I wouldn't argue that the age of the earth would discredit a extra-dimensional Creator. However, to say that there is no extra-dimensional creator since science refutes the existence of a God is a more of statement that I would base my thought on.

If it is true, I would be so offended by the idea that I was living in submission to a God doesn't exist. I would most likely resort to living a self centered life with no purpose except the "do whatever feels good" principle and I wouldn't be interested in science. Don't get me wrong there are many who live this way regardless of there religious affiliation. For those, who choose that hope, have something more than survival, or self-made purpose to live for.

I have come to understand that those who believe there is no God is as diverse in belief as you get. I can imagine that one man can hold his own unique morals and principles and have a unique denomination of atheism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 11:12 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Pressie, posted 09-30-2013 7:15 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 1:18 PM Ra3MaN has responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 77 of 124 (707660)
09-30-2013 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
09-29-2013 9:56 AM


I would understand why Ra3MaN might be very resistant to my approach because *he* believes I'm telling him his religious beliefs are wrong.

That is a good observation, and I am sure it is the case with most people. My girlfriend is resistant to my beliefs, because she has done things that way her whole life. I can't say the same, my beliefs have changed a lot up until this point. So I question what I believe, I base my beliefs about the world on numerous encounters that i have had on a spiritual level, and subsequently sought scriptural explanation...

So, I am not resistant because of whether you have offended me or not, I am resistant because of my personal observations/experiences. These encounters have shared by a number of other individuals. which i have inferred it to be a certain God based on how well it meets the scriptural account.

Telling Ra3MaN that his concerns about science have nothing to with spirituality is not telling him his religious beliefs are wrong. It's only telling him he has some mistaken notions and that his attention is not focused on what's important.

I agree with sds, a religious practice is a (counter)measure performed as a result of you religious beliefs and affiliations.

e.g. Subsequent to an act of immorality, one could confess to a religious leader, he forgives, and that person, religiously believes he/she is forgiven because they performed the religious practice.

If spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs is truly different, can science prove the existence of a spirit? if not what would be the point of having both a spiritual and science based perception of the world? This, being regardless if it is positive thinking, or a God the we submit to.

Edited by Ra3MaN, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 9:56 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 8:59 AM Ra3MaN has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 78 of 124 (707666)
09-30-2013 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Ra3MaN
09-30-2013 2:00 AM


Ra3MaN writes:

I wouldn't argue that the age of the earth would discredit a extra-dimensional Creator.

The age of the earth does provide empirical, verifiable evidence that a creation only a few thousand years is incorrect. It doesn't discredit an extra-dimentional creator at all. Just that the earth formed billions of years ago.

Ra3MaN writes:

However, to say that there is no extra-dimensional creator since science refutes the existence of a God is a more of statement that I would base my thought on.

Where does science refute the existence of a God or Gods?

Science can refute certain claims made by some varieties of religions, such as an earth made a few thousand years ago. That's been shown to be completely incorrect by every one of the natural sciences.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:00 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:30 AM Pressie has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15674
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 79 of 124 (707670)
09-30-2013 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Ra3MaN
09-30-2013 2:39 AM


Ra3MaN writes:

If spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs is truly different, can science prove the existence of a spirit?

If you wanted to prove the existence of black swans, you'd figure out how to observe one. If you wanted to prove the existence of spirits, you'd figure out how to observe one.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:39 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:29 AM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 124 (707703)
09-30-2013 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Ra3MaN
09-30-2013 2:00 AM


However, to say that there is no extra-dimensional creator since science refutes the existence of a God is a more of statement that I would base my thought on.

Does science say anything about that topic at all? Science does not refute the existence of God. Science does do is provide evidence for some facts that conflicts with some beliefs about God. If you happen to hold those beliefs and you also work with science, you'll have to resolve that issue in your own way.

Despite my disagreement with Percy's claim that religious beliefs do not conflict with science, I think we agree that dropping mistaken beliefs need not interfere with your relationship with God.

And I'm not an atheist.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Ra3MaN, posted 09-30-2013 2:00 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 2:40 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 83 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:13 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15674
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 81 of 124 (707710)
09-30-2013 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 1:18 PM


NoNukes writes:

Despite my disagreement with Percy's claim that religious beliefs do not conflict with science,...

That's not my position, but I think it's a minor side issue in this discussion.

...I think we agree that dropping mistaken beliefs need not interfere with your relationship with God.

Yep!

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 1:18 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 3:59 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 124 (707713)
09-30-2013 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Percy
09-30-2013 2:40 PM


That's not my position, but I think it's a minor side issue in this discussion.

Sorry about that. I did mistate your position.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 2:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 83 of 124 (707768)
10-01-2013 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 1:18 PM


Ok, you all are correct then. But I think the idea of God and science cannot be simultaneously held comes from the mouths of Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins, etc., who combine their love for Science with a hatred for deity. They often attack the idea that God exists (Lawrence has eased off a bit though).

As you may know, both of these people are prominent figures in the public eye and could likely be the source of most of the Atheist, Abiogeneisis views.

Does it really encourage free thinking to hold the same views as someone who has convinced you, without investigating yourself? Or is it not just indoctrination (for lack of a better word)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 1:18 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 4:04 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 98 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:12 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 9:50 AM Ra3MaN has responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 84 of 124 (707769)
10-01-2013 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
09-30-2013 8:59 AM


I understand. Many people, including myself have personal experience, which may not convince you, but it really convinced me.

I would argue in that same way, individual scientists have observed/experienced phenomenon based on an experiment they have designed, and then they give an account for what they have seen. Media naturally goes crazy with new ideas and tell the public often crazy things. Subsequently, the public who mostly have no understanding of "why", accept what was told to them and ultimately believe blindly... so there is no difference between the theistic and Atheistic believer (with a small percentage of people, who actually know what they are talking about).

What are your thoughts on that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 8:59 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Pressie, posted 10-01-2013 4:57 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 10-02-2013 8:59 AM Ra3MaN has not yet responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 85 of 124 (707770)
10-01-2013 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Pressie
09-30-2013 7:15 AM


Read my message 83.....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Pressie, posted 09-30-2013 7:15 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Pressie, posted 10-01-2013 4:47 AM Ra3MaN has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4966
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 86 of 124 (707772)
10-01-2013 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 2:13 AM


Ra writes:

Ok, you all are correct then. But I think the idea of God and science cannot be simultaneously held comes from the mouths of Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins, etc., who combine their love for Science with a hatred for deity. They often attack the idea that God exists (Lawrence has eased off a bit though).

My reading of Dawkins is that he dislikes ('hates' is too emotive) many religions - but dislikes even more the delusional thinking that derives from belief. He also does not deny the possibility of deity. He also enjoys singing hymns.

As you may know, both of these people are prominent figures in the public eye and could likely be the source of most of the Atheist, Abiogeneisis views.

Now that's just plain wrong. All Dawkins has done is give a voice to views that already existed - he's not the founder of some atheistic sect. And what has abiogenesis got to do with atheism?

Does it really encourage free thinking to hold the same views as someone who has convinced you, without investigating yourself? Or is it not just indoctrination (for lack of a better word)?

These writers on atheism are simply putting there views out in a way that hasn't been done before. The world has got used to the spouting of the religious from every media for millennia - it's now seems a little taken aback that there can be people with other opinions.

Where's the inoctrination? Where are the atheist schools and churches? Where's the dogma, the institutions, the laws of the cult?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:13 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 5:15 AM Tangle has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 87 of 124 (707774)
10-01-2013 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 2:30 AM


I did read your message 83.

Your answer doesn't make any sense to me, as such a very, very large percentage of religious scientists in our country do hold those views simultaneously. Nearly all of those religious scientists do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:30 AM Ra3MaN has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 88 of 124 (707775)
10-01-2013 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 2:29 AM


This one is weird. Maybe first read up on something before you write it down here?

Ra3MaN writes writes:

.....so there is no difference between the theistic and Atheistic believer

Theists are believers (Judaism, Muslim, Christian, Zorochastrian, Hindu, Satanist, etc) , while atheists are disbelievers in a God or Gods.

Making stuff up, Ra3MaN, they way you want it to be, won't get you anywhere on this forum. It just makes your ideas seem to be pretty silly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:29 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 5:17 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 89 of 124 (707776)
10-01-2013 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
10-01-2013 4:04 AM


...he's not the founder of some atheistic sect. And what has abiogenesis got to do with atheism?

that may be, but like you said he is a voice, and people follow. Aboigenisis is a belief that Atheists can hold. In my experience I have heard Atheists say that they couldn't care less about where they came form. Thus atheist could be more denominational then some of the major religions, due to the huge varieties of theories to choose from.

Where's the inoctrination? Where are the atheist schools and churches?

Government has/is eliminating religion, faith from schools - Atheistic (non-belief) based teaching.

An article of the Atheist church. http://www.salon.com/..._its_megachurch_is_it_a_religion_now
there are a number of articles, do a web search.

The laws will develop as they feel the need to unify/diverge in beliefs...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 4:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 5:56 AM Ra3MaN has responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1321 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 90 of 124 (707777)
10-01-2013 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Pressie
10-01-2013 4:57 AM


That is an observation, which led to an inference... See the link in message 89
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Pressie, posted 10-01-2013 4:57 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
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