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Author Topic:   Relevance of origins to modern science
Tangle
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Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 91 of 124 (707778)
10-01-2013 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 5:15 AM


Ra writes:

that may be,

That is be.

but like you said he is a voice, and people follow

People who are interested in the subject follow his arguments. Most people couldn't give a flying fuck. Religious people however, are offended that his views are being expressed at all - that's what the fuss is about.

Aboigenisis is a belief that Atheists can hold.

Oh dear. Blue is a colour that atheists can like. Toast and marmite is a food that atheists can eat.

Look, atheism is the belief that God(s) do not exist. That's all - nothing else.

Abiogenesis is a scientific hypothesis on how life started. It has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism.

In my experience I have heard Atheists say that they couldn't care less about where they came form. Thus atheist could be more denominational then some of the major religions, due to the huge varieties of theories to choose from.

Your logic is in a total mess.

There are no denominations of atheists. I repeat atheism is the belief that God(s) do not exist. That's all - nothing else.

Now, atheists being all sorts of kinds of people will have all sorts of hypothesis - and none - for how life started, how the universe came into existence, but that's just people - they don't gather together into sects and fight with each other about it.

Please don't try to compare religious beliefs to scientific hypothesis - it's wrong-headed.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 5:15 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Tangle has responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1387 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 92 of 124 (707779)
10-01-2013 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
10-01-2013 5:56 AM


Please don't try to compare religious beliefs to scientific hypothesis - it's wrong-headed

These are entirely off topic.....

I singled out scientific hypothesis. What about moral standards held between atheists e.g. lying, stealing, polygamy etc. What about speaker preference? Activities? Drugs? sexual orientation? Education? violence?

Doesn't being Atheist mean that you can hold you own e.g. moral standards, as a result of there being no God? Won't this impact how you see everything else?

What do you think an Atheistic world will look like? (maybe this should be a new topic...)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 5:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Pressie, posted 10-01-2013 7:24 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
 Message 94 by JonF, posted 10-01-2013 7:42 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 8:29 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:09 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 104 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 9:56 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 10-01-2013 12:42 PM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
 Message 115 by Stile, posted 10-01-2013 2:30 PM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2013 3:52 PM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1809
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 93 of 124 (707780)
10-01-2013 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 7:08 AM


Ra3Man writes:

These are entirely off topic.....I singled out scientific hypothesis. What about moral standards held between atheists e.g. *****, stealing, polygamy etc. What about speaker preference? Activities? Drugs? sexual orientation? Education? violence?


You introduced it to this forum. It's got nothing to do with atheism. Atheists just don't believe in the existence of a God or Gods. That's it.
Ra3Man writes:

Doesn't being Atheist mean that you can hold you own e.g. moral standards, as a result of there being no God?

Nope. The only thing atheists have in common is that they don't believe in the existence of a God or Gods. That's it.
Ra3Man writes:

Won't this impact how you see everything else?

Nope. Athiests don't believe in the existence of a God or Gods. That's it.
Ra3Man writes:

What do you think an Atheistic world will look like? (maybe this should be a new topic...)

My opinion is that it would look very similar to the world we live in today. The difference would be that it would be without religious suicide bombers and other crazy people thinking that crazy religious ideas should be taught as 'science'.

But some people will still be ridiculously crazy. As now.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
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Posts: 3974
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 94 of 124 (707782)
10-01-2013 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 7:08 AM


Doesn't being Atheist mean that you can hold you own e.g. moral standards, as a result of there being no God? Won't this impact how you see everything else?

No.

It is a fact that atheists are pretty much as moral as everyone else. There are some indications they are more moral than others. There's no point in trying to argue that they can't be moral, the interesting question is why are they moral. There are some interesting sociological and evolutionary hypotheses as to why.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 95 of 124 (707784)
10-01-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 7:08 AM


Ra writes:

I singled out scientific hypothesis. What about moral standards held between atheists e.g. lying, stealing, polygamy etc. What about speaker preference? Activities? Drugs? sexual orientation? Education? violence?

What about them?

People are the same the world over - good, bad and indifferent. Why should an atheist have a different view on drugs or stealing or anything else you can think of, except the existence or otherwise of god(s)?

Clue: they don't.

Now figure out why you think that an atheist can't have the same opinion about violence or education etc as a religious person.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 8:55 AM Tangle has responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1387 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 96 of 124 (707786)
10-01-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
10-01-2013 8:29 AM


What about them?

I just wanted to point out that people are divided by more that Religious beliefs.

Maybe you could get, polygamist Atheists vs monogamist Atheists, Genocide approving Atheists vs non-... It may happen that the Harvard university Atheists can't get along with the Oxford University Atheists because of their University affiliation... I agree that Atheism won't change how the world came out, and yet there will still be conflict.

Additional attributes that cause division/war, is greed, land-grabbing, corruption... Yes, Religion causes people to do crazy things, but so does non-religious things, like Science, consumer mentality etc....

Why should an atheist have a different view on...

Do you live differently from a religious person? I asked one Atheist about what keeps him motivated to do life. His answer: Personal fitness. Where as the religious or spiritual person would live according to the doctrine of their Belief. I would like to know what drives you to continue your existence? (if you want you can message me)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 8:29 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:21 AM Ra3MaN has responded
 Message 113 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 11:03 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 10-02-2013 9:13 AM Ra3MaN has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 97 of 124 (707788)
10-01-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 7:08 AM


Activities? Drugs? sexual orientation? Education? violence?

Think about what you are actually asking here? Are you suggesting that you chose not to be gay or go to do drugs because you thought you might go to hell?

As far as education is concerned, did you see any atheists with you at college?

Seriously. I'm a Christian, but the reason I don't want to screw boys is because its icky.

I don't think you've thought this through. Just how often do you think about the 10 commandments explicitly when you decide not to steal, kill, or fornicate with a friend's wife?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 9:27 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 98 of 124 (707789)
10-01-2013 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 2:13 AM


wrong again
As you may know, both of these people are prominent figures in the public eye and could likely be the source of most of the Atheist, Abiogeneisis views.

Major wrong again.

While Dawkins is an atheist, atheism has nothing to do with abiogenesis. In fact, Dawkins and I are about the same age; he's a couple years older and I'm about ten years older than Kraus. But while I was in school, in fact at a Christian school and studying evolution and the then current ideas for abiogenesis, Dawkins was also still in what we called the Upper School, say 9th grade and Kraus would have been in kindergarten. Neither subject was new at that time since both concepts had been touched on briefly in earlier general science classes.

Since both concepts were part of normal classwork even in the Christian (founded in 1849 IIRC) school I attended you can hardly claim that either the Theory of Evolution or Abiogenesis were atheistic or created by Dawkins.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone attacking the concept of deity. In fact, even theists should challenge the concept of deity.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:13 AM Ra3MaN has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 99 of 124 (707790)
10-01-2013 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 8:55 AM


Wrong yet again.
It may happen that the Harvard university Atheists can't get along with the Oxford University Atheists because of their University affiliation

Do you know who John Harvard was?

You should also look up the Permanent Private Halls of Oxford University as well as the origin of the Colleges of Oxford.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 8:55 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 9:33 AM jar has responded

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1387 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 100 of 124 (707791)
10-01-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by NoNukes
10-01-2013 9:09 AM


Think about what you are actually asking here? Are you suggesting that you chose not to be gay or go to do drugs because you thought you might go to hell?

It is a challenge. I suggested the possibility of Atheist divergence/denomination on the basis of including their sexual orientation, diet, abortion views, Drug habits, education level etc. This in the same way that religious denominations oppose one another as a result of different religious practices/beliefs. It was not a "you might go to hell" threat.

As far as education is concerned, did you see any atheists with you at college?

To be honest I haven't found any Atheist without internet access hehehe... In my University we could get along quite well without ever mentioning our beliefs about the world, faith, religion etc., unless prompted to do so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:09 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1387 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 101 of 124 (707792)
10-01-2013 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
10-01-2013 9:21 AM


Re: Wrong yet again.
Wrong yet again.
It may happen that the Harvard university Atheists can't get along with the Oxford University Atheists because of their University affiliation

Do you know who John Harvard was?

You should also look up the Permanent Private Halls of Oxford University as well as the origin of the Colleges of Oxford.

That is not my argument.

For an alternate example, The animal-rights Atheist may disagree with the animal-cruelty condoning Atheist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:21 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:41 AM Ra3MaN has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 102 of 124 (707796)
10-01-2013 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 9:33 AM


Re: Wrong yet again.
Your point is moot though. If you substitute the word theist for atheist the sentence makes the same sense. And let's face it, no one has done genocide as well and effectively as Christians. South Africa itself was almost as great an example as the US.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 9:33 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 10:01 AM jar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


(1)
Message 103 of 124 (707798)
10-01-2013 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 2:13 AM


Does it really encourage free thinking to hold the same views as someone who has convinced you, without investigating yourself? Or is it not just indoctrination (for lack of a better word)?

So advocating and encouraging religious views is perfectly fine, but doing the same with nonreligious views is not?

One side puts children starting at infancy in church pews, reads them stories from the bible before they can read, the other side publishes books and lectures.

What one is indoctrinating?

You certainly seem to be suffering from Christian Persecution Syndrome.

could likely be the source of most of the Atheist, Abiogeneisis views.

Wow!! That comment is ridiculously asinine. For two reasons. Atheism has been around a hell of a lot longer than either of them. As a matter of fact I think it is quite safe to say the vast majority of atheists were atheists before they even heard of these guys. I would also venture to guess that a plurality of atheists have no idea who they are. There are a lot of atheists that have very strong disagreements with dawkins.

Secondly, WTF does Abiogenesis have to do with atheism?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 2:13 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 10:17 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


(1)
Message 104 of 124 (707799)
10-01-2013 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Ra3MaN
10-01-2013 7:08 AM


. What about moral standards held between atheists e.g. lying, stealing, polygamy etc.

You are insulting as well as ignorant.

What group is more represented in the prison population? Atheists or religious?
What group is most known for advocating polygamy? Atheists or a religion based in Utah?

I am familiar with Gauteng area of SA. Unfortunately, the fundies hold incredible sway there.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 7:08 AM Ra3MaN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Ra3MaN, posted 10-01-2013 10:22 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 1387 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 105 of 124 (707801)
10-01-2013 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
10-01-2013 9:41 AM


Re: Wrong yet again.
Your point is moot though. If you substitute the word theist for atheist the sentence makes the same sense.

You have succeeded in seeing my point. Read message 95 & 96. Wars and damage to society is cannot be attributed to religion alone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:41 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 10:03 AM Ra3MaN has not yet responded
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