Understanding through Discussion

Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 122 (8763 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-25-2017 9:50 PM
413 online now:
Asgara (AdminAsgara), edge, Faith, kjsimons, LamarkNewAge, NoNukes, Phat (AdminPhat) (7 members, 406 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: aristotle
Post Volume:
Total: 812,092 Year: 16,698/21,208 Month: 2,587/3,593 Week: 54/646 Day: 54/78 Hour: 2/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Author Topic:   WTF is wrong with people
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0

Message 451 of 457 (708993)
10-18-2013 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by frako
10-16-2013 11:38 AM

Re: A partial summary.
Because God imagined/created us long before we had even evolved the intelligence to "make Him up."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by frako, posted 10-16-2013 11:38 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by frako, posted 10-18-2013 6:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 455 by PlanManStan, posted 12-14-2013 7:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

Posts: 2699
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010

Message 452 of 457 (708994)
10-18-2013 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
10-18-2013 5:58 PM

Re: A partial summary.
so that's how we would notice if he died tomorrow?????

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Phat, posted 10-18-2013 5:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 32 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008

Message 453 of 457 (709000)
10-18-2013 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
10-16-2013 2:43 PM

Re: My summary
Faith writes:

What's wrong with people? can be asked from the Christian and creationist point of view too, but such things get answered by those who have the POWER to answer them according to their own opinions, not necessarily those who have the truth.

I'm trying to work out what you mean by that... You seem to be saying: From the Christian and creationist point of view, the question "What's wrong with (non-Christian, non-creationist) people?" gets answered by those who have the POWER to answer according to Christian/creationist opinions, not necessarily those who have the truth. Did I understand you right? If so, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Evolutionists think anything done in the biological sciences confirms evolution

Right - and this line of thinking is based on the fact that all available observations of real-world evidence point to this conclusion. For instance, the particular details of DNA evidence that serve to establish paternity are of the same type, with the same truth value, as the details that establish the fact that all primates have a common ancestor, as do all mammals, as do all tetrapods. In order to deny the latter relations, you also need to deny the evidence used to establish paternity across a single generation.

... but most of it describes only microevolution which creationists regard as normal variation through built-in alleles.

And the existence of ring species is something that causes creationists to abandon or deny logical, evidence-based thinking.

... they refuse to recognize that depleted genetic diversity is the necessary end result of evolutionary processes...

And that's because it would be a serious mistake, going against all observation, to assert that "depleted genetic diversity is the necessary end result of evolutionary processes." That's not something that can be "recognized", because that isn't what the evidence demonstrates.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 10-16-2013 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1129 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 12-12-2013

Message 454 of 457 (713599)
12-14-2013 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
09-27-2013 11:18 AM

"Now can someone explain to me how this and worse can be still going on in the 21 century."

Unless every single individual gets a quality education (i.e. free from all this controversey over teaching what not, what I mean is teaching EVERYTHING) will everyone see the error in certain ways of thinking. This, of course, is impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 09-27-2013 11:18 AM frako has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1129 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 12-12-2013

Message 455 of 457 (713606)
12-14-2013 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
10-18-2013 5:58 PM

Re: A partial summary.
God created us, but we evolved, what?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Phat, posted 10-18-2013 5:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009

Message 456 of 457 (713634)
12-14-2013 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Faith
10-15-2013 5:09 PM

Re: Contribution of Drift
Something I notice when looking through creationist literature is the self-contradiction between the creationist explanations put forward to find fault with the scientific explanations. When focusing attention on just one topic at a time these contradictions aren't as noticeable. Only when you collect them all, do you begin to see that this creationist explanation contradicts that creationist explanation over there.

post 407

how selection and isolation reduce genetic diversity which defeats the very idea of evolution

This seems to be a recurring post, how the founder effect reduces genetic diversity, of course only by denying beneficial mutations, however rare. This is a direct contradiction with the idea that all mankind sprang from Adam and his cloned wife Eve who had very limited genetic diversity, a single pair that together had no more genetic diversity than a single individual.

How do you explain all the genetic diversity that presently exists in the human population in 6,000 years time??

If it is by means of some sort of super genome, iirc Jar laid that one to rest in a thread about the DNA of the 5,000 year old ice man.

Young-earth creationists such as Answers in Genesis will doubtless claim that this research supports their claims that humans, Neandertals, and other archaic hominids all form one species. However, it's a lot harder to see how all the necessary population events can be squeezed into 10,000 years. Starting from Adam and Eve, humans apparently populated Africa, Asia and Europe, then some of them left Africa, picked up some Neandertal genes from the Middle East, then populated the world again, with some of them picking up more genes from the Denisovans and going on to populate Melanesia. Somehow, this emigrating group was also able to cause all the other humans to become extinct. At some point a flood occurred, killing all but 8 humans and removing most of the genetic variability. It would be tempting to assume the flood took care of removing the Neandertals and Denisovans, but that would leave the problem of explaining how their genetic contributions made it into the modern world. Supposing one person on the ark had Neandertal genes, and another Denisovan genes. The Arkers then had children who would have married each other. How could it happen that Africa ends up with the greatest genetic diversity, and yet none of the Neandertal and Denisovan genes are found there? Meanwhile, the Neandertal genes managed to find their way into all non-Africans, while the Denisovan genes found their way into the Melanesian population, but nowhere else (if 8 people populate the world, how can one of those people account for 5% of the genome of 0.15% of the world's population?). This scenario seems, to put it mildly, hopelessly improbable if not completely impossible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Faith, posted 10-15-2013 5:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2013 11:37 PM shalamabobbi has not yet responded

Posts: 5863
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0

Message 457 of 457 (713637)
12-14-2013 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by shalamabobbi
12-14-2013 11:07 PM

Re: Contribution of Drift
Here's another good one. In the creationist artlcle, "The non-transitions in ‘human evolution’–on evolutionists’ terms," by John Woodmorappe, we find the following:

The relevant evidence clearly shows that Homo sapiens sensu lato is a separate and distinct entity from the other hominids. No overall evolutionary progression is to be found. Adam and Eve, and not the australopiths/habilines, are our actual ancestors. As pointed out by other creationists [e.g., Lubenow], Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis, and Homo neanderthalensis can best be understood as racial variants of modern man–all descended from Adam and Eve, and most likely arising after the separation of people groups after Babel.

What if this wonderful bit of creationist “science” was actually correct? It would have the following implications, most of which run contrary to what creationists generally claim:

The change from modern man, i.e., Adam and Eve, to these four species of fossil man took place since the Babel incident, which is usually placed after the global flood and in the range of 4,000 to 5,300 years ago. The change from modern man to Homo ergaster would require a rate of evolution on the order of several hundred times as rapid as scientists posit for the change from Homo ergaster to modern man! This is in spite of the fact that most creationists deny evolution occurs on this scale at all; now they have not only proposed such a change themselves, but see it several hundreds of times faster and in reverse!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by shalamabobbi, posted 12-14-2013 11:07 PM shalamabobbi has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:

Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017