Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8796 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-20-2017 6:43 AM
324 online now:
PaulK, Pressie, Son Goku (3 members, 321 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: Flyer75
Happy Birthday: Astrophile
Post Volume:
Total: 820,888 Year: 25,494/21,208 Month: 1,121/2,338 Week: 242/450 Day: 7/55 Hour: 3/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56Next
Author Topic:   What if this forum was dominated by creationists?
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1754
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 46 of 86 (707913)
10-02-2013 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by frako
10-01-2013 10:49 AM


Re: Come one come all
You are holding up well. 12 posts in and you have only been warned twice to read the rules and only accused once of 'equivocating'. I think that, over there, 'equivocating' means when you correct their misunderstanding of the meaning of a word.

I see that they have already separated you off into another thread in preparation for complete removal. I could be wrong though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by frako, posted 10-01-2013 10:49 AM frako has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1754
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 47 of 86 (707914)
10-02-2013 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by yenmor
10-01-2013 3:38 AM


Re: Come one come all
So, no thank you.

As you wish. I just think that the site it is a really good example of people who are suffering from group think in the extreme.

Could you provide an example from this site where the same is happening? I don't see it here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by yenmor, posted 10-01-2013 3:38 AM yenmor has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2013 11:45 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 48 of 86 (707955)
10-02-2013 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by yenmor
10-02-2013 12:28 AM


Re: Come one come all
Wow, you are such a smart and intelligent debater. When I grow up, I want to be just like you.

You could do a lot worse..

Good comeback though.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by yenmor, posted 10-02-2013 12:28 AM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 12:40 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 49 of 86 (707964)
10-02-2013 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ProtoTypical
10-02-2013 6:22 AM


Re: Come one come all
Could you provide an example from this site where the same is happening? I don't see it here.

It's hard for participants in group thinking to see it, so if it is going, it would be hard to detect. One thing an outsider might notice that a regular might miss is a lack of policing of bad arguments by one side or the other. You've likely noticed that Creationists rarely cross each other in an argument against evolution even when they disagree on the par. But given that there are so few of them here, it's almost understandable. But both sides do it, and the majority side has no real excuse.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-02-2013 6:22 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-04-2013 8:22 AM NoNukes has responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 50 of 86 (707971)
10-03-2013 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
10-02-2013 5:19 PM


Re: Come one come all
Take it as a compliment.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2013 5:19 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3020
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 51 of 86 (707986)
10-03-2013 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


Always possible
yenmor writes:

is it possible that the good inhabitants of this place are slowly slipping down the rabbit hole?

Of course.

The way to measure if this is occurring is to look at the controls placed on the system. In this case (online forums) the controls are moderation, banning and even post editing/erasing.

I know that the EvolutionFairyTales site mentioned keeps those controls very tight. Even including post editing and full erasure of ideas they find to be incongruent of their own.

The Tech forum you mention seems to be pretty quick on the banning, do you know if they delete posts at all?

Deletion of ideas would be a definitive indication of "slipping down the rabbit hole."

Do you see any of these signs occurring here?

Moderation issues?
Banning issues?
Deletion/Editing of posts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 09-30-2013 3:09 AM yenmor has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3020
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 52 of 86 (707988)
10-03-2013 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by yenmor
10-01-2013 12:33 PM


How do these ideas co-exist?
From Message 5:
yenmor writes:

We are, after all, the worst evaluator of ourselves. People with stinky breaths don't think they have stinky breaths.

From Message 34:

yenmor writes:

Anyway, I also get cranky when people call me judgmental. They have no idea that when I say what I say, it's literal and not a put down. It's not me exaggerating or calling them names. It's exactly how it is literally.

Which is it?

Are you immune to being "the worst evaluator of yourself"? Or is it possible that what you think you're judging as "exactly how it is literally" could be interpreted another way?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by yenmor, posted 10-01-2013 12:33 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 1:52 PM Stile has responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 53 of 86 (708013)
10-03-2013 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Stile
10-03-2013 11:05 AM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
I wasn't going to get in a debate with political correctness Nazis, but what the hell.

Here is why my 2 statements can coexist together.

I have a lot of flaws. I admit that. I'm also not the brightest kid on the block. Again, I admit that. That's what knowing my limitations are. And by trying my best to watch for my limitations, flaws, etc., I hope to not have misplaced confidence. I try my best to not have misplaced confidence. At the same time, I know my capabilities as well. Got my undergraduate degree in physics and masters in engineering. I'm a full time engineer in the Chicago area and a part-time/hobbyist computer programmer. Not the best one on the block, but just barely good enough.

And at age 30, I'm balding... grrrr.....

When I say those people are white trash, you have no idea how well they fit into that category.

When my boyfriend was 15, his parents kicked him out into the streets beause he was gay. Nowadays, the father tries to reconcile that by saying he was only trying make his son a man. One of his sisters just gave birth to a baby girl. We went to visit her at the hospital last night. She's 16. The youngest sister has dropped out of school at age 15. The mom is not doing anything about it, because she is drunk all the time. Heck, she was drunk last night at the hospital when we went to see the sister and the new baby. Don't know how she got into the hospital like that. The dad actually embraced it, because he thought schools were for brainwashing kids.

They are creationists, believing in the literal creation stories.

They are very religious, attributing everything to god.

And about 7 months ago, they got kicked out of the house they were renting because he hadn't paid the bills for months. Funny how he was one of those that rushed out and bought a whole bunch of guns and ammo because Obama was going to take his guns away but he didn't have the money to pay rent.

And he's gotta keep that pitbull of his.

2 years ago, he hurt his back at work as a mover. He sued the company and got about $150k out of it. He immediately went out and spent most of that money on an expensive luxury sport car, which he eventually lost anyway. So, 2 years ago he had $150k cash and 7 months ago the family became homeless. He took his youngest daughter to live with his brother. His wife lived in a homeless shelter. And the pregnant daughter went to live with the father of the baby. By the way, now that the baby is born, the grandparents on the other side are demanding they have a paternity test.

The father isn't working, because he's been blacklisted by moving companies for having sued and won a case. Last I heard, he and his daughter will be kicked out of his brother's place soon for doing nothing but drinking all day.

And he's gotta have his guns and pitbull, because Obama was coming to take them away anytime now.

To this day, I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night finding my boyfriend crying in his sleep. I have a friend who is a psychologist that works in the prison reform system. I consulted him once and he said he thinks my boyfriend is suffering from repressed childhood memories. Hint: There are scars on my boyfriend's body.

So, how exactly would you describe such a family? Am I not allowed to call them a white trash family? I got that term from my boyfriend. He uses it to describe himself and his family. He currently goes to college for dentistry on full scholarship. We worked really hard to get him that scholarship. He'll be the first person in his extended family to get a college degree. In the mean time, he still cries in his sleep.

Added by edit.

And god bless you if you are a liberal commie who believes all lifestyles should be embraced, including the one I just described to you. In that sense, yes I am unfairly judging them.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 11:05 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 2:27 PM yenmor has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3020
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 54 of 86 (708014)
10-03-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by yenmor
10-03-2013 1:52 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
yenmor writes:

Here is why my 2 statements can coexist together.

...where? All you did was describe his family. I don't care about your (or his) personal life. It was just a question.

So, how exactly would you describe such a family?

I don't care as it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to ask.

Am I not allowed to call them a white trash family?

Again, I don't care.

Here's what I said again:

quote:
From Message 5:
yenmor writes:

We are, after all, the worst evaluator of ourselves. People with stinky breaths don't think they have stinky breaths.

From Message 34:

yenmor writes:

Anyway, I also get cranky when people call me judgmental. They have no idea that when I say what I say, it's literal and not a put down. It's not me exaggerating or calling them names. It's exactly how it is literally.

Which is it?

Are you immune to being "the worst evaluator of yourself"? Or is it possible that what you think you're judging as "exactly how it is literally" could be interpreted another way?


I don't care about the subject you were expressing these ideas about. It could be a shitty family, it could be a great family, it could be an average family, it could be licorice sticks.

I'm just interested in the two ideas you're claiming to hold about yourself.

On one hand you seem to claim that people are the worst evaluators of themselves... it is difficult for us to determine if we're being objective or not. It is difficult to identify when we're wrong. This seems very reasonable and mature.

On the other hand, you seem to claim that when you describe something... it's "exactly literal" and not judgemental in any way.

It seems contradictory... which is it? Are you able to be perfectly objective all the time? Or is it possible that you make mistakes?

I'm not asking you to defend your boyfriend, or validate your feelings about his family or worry about being seen as correct or good-enough or smart... I really don't care. The situation may be screwed up, but things can always be worse and/or always be better. This isn't some competition to show how difficult or righteous your life is. I just don't care. We all have our own troubles... some will be lessor than yours, others will be greater... and you won't always be the one to judge such anyway.

What I do care about is the question I asked and the one you haven't answered yet.
You seem to be claiming two very contradictory ideas, and I'm wondering how you keep both of them in your head.

It's perfectly valid if you don't care to answer my question. I'm not going to hunt you down or anything. You're free to simply not answer it if you don't want to for whatever reason. But, really, you haven't addressed it at all yet so I don't know if you don't understand me or if you don't want to answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 1:52 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 3:35 PM Stile has responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 55 of 86 (708019)
10-03-2013 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Stile
10-03-2013 2:27 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
One of several things could be going on here. You could be quote-mining, misreading, or just plain wanting to pick a fight. I'm not sure what yet.

Stile writes:

On one hand you seem to claim that people are the worst evaluators of themselves... it is difficult for us to determine if we're being objective or not. It is difficult to identify when we're wrong. This seems very reasonable and mature.

On the other hand, you seem to claim that when you describe something... it's "exactly literal" and not judgemental in any way.


No, I did not. I was referring to that specific instance of my description of that family.

Not all my descriptions of anything are always correct. Like everyone else, I am not immune to misconceptions.

My question to you is why are those two things need to be mutually exclusive? Am I not ever allowed to list my qualifications on my resume just because I am the worst evaluator of myself? Is a doctor not allowed to call himself a doctor simply because for all he knows everything he knows about medicine could be a delusion?

You've presented a false dilemma of 2 extremes.

So, in this particular instance, do you think I am justified in calling that family white trash? That's the question. I wasn't claiming that all or even most my evaluations are always correct. In fact, I have no idea how you even got that impression from what I wrote.

So, which is this? Did you misread what I said? Did you quote-mine me? Are you just looking for someone to disagree? Are you just being politically correct? I'm trying to figure out where this is coming from.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 2:27 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by 1.61803, posted 10-03-2013 6:17 PM yenmor has responded
 Message 67 by Stile, posted 10-04-2013 2:31 PM yenmor has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2719
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 56 of 86 (708029)
10-03-2013 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by yenmor
10-03-2013 3:35 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
yenmor writes:

One of several things could be going on here. You could be quote-mining, misreading, or just plain wanting to pick a fight. I'm not sure what yet

I think it is more of just wanting to see how much back peddling you will do and how much you trip yourself up whilst doing it.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 3:35 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 7:13 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 57 of 86 (708033)
10-03-2013 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by 1.61803
10-03-2013 6:17 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
1.61803 writes:

I think it is more of just wanting to see how much back peddling you will do and how much you trip yourself up whilst doing it.


What back-peddling?

Again, I ask this question. Why do those 2 things need to be mutually exclusive? For example, just because I can't tell if my breath stinks or not doesn't mean I can't have a friend smell it and tell me. Or I could brush my teeth heavily and chug down like 2 gallons of mouthwash right before an event.

It is laughable to suggest that just because we normally can't tell if our breath stinks or not then we can never know in any/all instances that our breath stinks or not.

Yes, we have uncertainty. And people who are less qualified than others tend to have a more bloated sense of qualification. Trust me, I know. I observed this many times while I was in grad school working as a TA. Often times, the students who did very poorly on the tests thought they nailed them. But again, just because one tries to be self-aware of his limitations and what he knows doesn't mean he automatically falls into this category.

My goodness...

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by 1.61803, posted 10-03-2013 6:17 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by 1.61803, posted 10-04-2013 10:53 AM yenmor has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 58 of 86 (708034)
10-03-2013 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by yenmor
10-02-2013 12:28 AM


And the editor of the year award goes to...
When If I grow up, I want to be just like you.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by yenmor, posted 10-02-2013 12:28 AM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 8:13 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 59 of 86 (708035)
10-03-2013 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jon
10-03-2013 7:55 PM


Re: And the editor of the year award goes to...
Well, it was the only response I could think of for a political correctness Nazi at the time. No argument here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 10-03-2013 7:55 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-03-2013 8:20 PM yenmor has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29441
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 60 of 86 (708036)
10-03-2013 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by yenmor
10-03-2013 8:13 PM


Re: And the editor of the year award goes to...
Only the most severely limited sophomores would use the phrase "a political correctness Nazi" but I'll admit that seeing it always is worth a laugh.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 8:13 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by yenmor, posted 10-03-2013 8:48 PM jar has responded

  
Prev123
4
56Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017