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Author Topic:   Is Dispensationalism a cult?
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 77 (708774)
10-14-2013 12:29 AM


In one of my threads, I brought up a good book by a dispensationalist, CR.Stam and was promptly called out by our works required-charged to do your best protestant, jar.
jar,to Phat writes:
Have you joined yet another of the dispensationalist cults?
. jar has always had a trademark scripture that summarizes his beliefs, taught to him ages ago by his family.
jar,somewhere on EvC writes:
But of course, the Bible says that Jesus said salvation is based on your behavior, your works.As a Protestant and having been raised as a Protestant and educated in a Protestant school I can say that we were taught that works were essential. As my old mom used to say, "It ain't what you profess to believe, it's what you do that shows what you REALLY believe." There are some chapters of Club Christian that hold and market the old "Jesus paid for all my sins" theology. I have to admit that is an attractive product, easy to to sell, epitomized by the oft seen bumper sticker "Not perfect, just saved." It is a great con job, totally legal and with absolutely no product liability.
Of course we know that the Bible says whatever it is we quote-mine it to say, so there will always be discussion. In this topic, I want to discuss whether or not there is any merit to the teachings of CR Stam and other dispensationalists.
jar writes:
We can say for sure that Paul had no problem playing fast and loose with the truth if it helped him as a marketeer of his new creation, Christianity.
There is no evidence that Paul was chosen to the "Apostle to the Gentiles" or that he was in fact "Apostle to the Gentiles" And yes, what Paul said is totally different than what is marketed today.
The question is whether there is a new requirement for believers(or anybody, really) that is not emphasized by Jesus and/or is a human invention rather than a Biblical Principal.
  • Salvation is a free gift and is never earned through works. Doing good works, however, can be evidence of a transformed mind. Critics would of course say that a believer would never skate through life without doing good works. The goats may bray otherwise.....
  • Dispensationalism makes sense if one believes that the Bible is more than simply human communication to other humans for a human motive.
    In this topic, I want to discuss some of the arguments used by dispensationalists and will also bring up what the critics say.
    Faith & Belief might be best.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by nwr, posted 10-14-2013 9:43 AM Phat has replied
     Message 4 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 10:26 AM Phat has replied
     Message 23 by Faith, posted 10-15-2013 12:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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    Message 2 of 77 (708776)
    10-14-2013 9:00 AM


    Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
    Thread copied here from the Is Dispensationalism a cult? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

      
    nwr
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    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
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    (2)
    Message 3 of 77 (708780)
    10-14-2013 9:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-14-2013 12:29 AM


    ... and was promptly called out by our works required-charged to do your best protestant, jar.
    Is this a thread about dispensationalism? Or is this a polemic attacking jar?
    Is dispensationalism a cult? I'm inclined to agree with jar on that. However, we do not have a clear crisp definition of "cult". The boundary between cult and non-cult is very fuzzy.
    To illustrate, I do consider YEC creationism a cult. But one could be a YEC without being part of that cult. What marks YEC as a cult, is that the adherents of that view are citing biblical evidence that cannot actually be found in the Bible. That is, they are taking marching orders from the controllers of the cult (such as Ken Ham).
    For dispensationalism, I'd raise the same issue. Are they getting their ideas from the Bible, or are they getting them from other dispensationalists. If the latter, then that is cult-like behavior.
    Looking up "dispensationalism" in Wikipedia, I see that Scofield was a dispensationalist. During my youth, I used a Scofield Bible. However, I did not take Scofield's comments as truth. I took them only as hints at what other people thought were ways of interpreting the particular verses. Many of the Scofield comments looked very dubious to me.
    In terms of reading theology, you should use the theology to see a range of opinions of others. But you still have to read the biblical text for yourself and make your own judgments. It is not sufficient to accept what other people say. That's a problem with both YEC creationism and dispensationalism as they are often practiced.

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 12:29 AM Phat has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 4 of 77 (708784)
    10-14-2013 10:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-14-2013 12:29 AM


    Dispensationalism
    Dispensationalism is a fairly new phenomenon and totally changed the thrust and reading of the Bible from what had been the common understanding for the first 1400 or 1500 years but it was eminently marketable and a great way to control the masses.
    Up until the advent of the Dispensation marketing ploy the prophesies found in the Bible were understood to refer to the contemporary period when written and for the contemporary audience. Revelation for example was understood to refer to the period shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem.
    Dispensationalism changed that understanding from a view towards the past to a future view and allowed fear to be used as a weapon of mass hysteria and also dispensation to be used as a way of saying "join us and YOU won't have to ..." It is after the idea of "Original Sin" one of the most brilliant marketing and control ploys ever invented.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 12:29 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2013 4:41 PM jar has replied
     Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 4:53 PM jar has replied
     Message 74 by Phat, posted 04-01-2015 3:35 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 5 of 77 (708803)
    10-14-2013 4:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by jar
    10-14-2013 10:26 AM


    Re: Dispensationalism
    Dispensationalism is a fairly new phenomenon and totally changed the thrust and reading of the Bible...
    It this is what constitutes a cult, then I don't see any point in applying the label, because the label is intended as a pejorative. Using your fairly benign definition, Catholics are well justified in calling most of the rest of us cultists, and then sticking us with defending ourselves against the negative connotations of the word.
    Instead I would suggest demonstrating that dispensationalism is worthy of carrying the pejoratives associated with the word cult. Then if the shoe fits, don't acquit.
    Alternatively we can decide that cults are the branch of Christianity that is the least Biblical, or that meets some other relevant objective or subjective standard. But just being new and saleable isn't a standard I'd want to bother with.

    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
    I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
    Richard P. Feynman
    If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 10:26 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 5:30 PM NoNukes has replied
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 5:40 PM NoNukes has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 6 of 77 (708804)
    10-14-2013 4:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by jar
    10-14-2013 10:26 AM


    Have You Ever Read The Bible?
    jar writes:
    Dispensationalism is a fairly new phenomenon and totally changed the thrust and reading of the Bible from what had been the common understanding for the first 1400 or 1500 years but it was eminently marketable and a great way to control the masses.
    Up until the advent of the Dispensation marketing ploy the prophesies found in the Bible were understood to refer to the contemporary period when written and for the contemporary audience. Revelation for example was understood to refer to the period shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem.
    Why must everything be "marketing" with you? Are you suggesting that the common understanding for the first 1400-1500 years is the true way of interpreting scripture? Keep in mind that the printing of books had barely begun and that 90% of people were illiterate anyway.
    I am more interested in examining this so-called marketing ploy....are you suggesting that dispensationalists don't read the Bible?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 10:26 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 5:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 7 of 77 (708806)
    10-14-2013 5:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
    10-14-2013 9:43 AM


    My Beliefs expanded
    nwr writes:
    Is this a thread about dispensationalism? Or is this a polemic attacking jar?
    Is dispensationalism a cult? I'm inclined to agree with jar on that. However, we do not have a clear crisp definition of "cult". The boundary between cult and non-cult is very fuzzy.
    I am never vindictive with jar...but he does force me to examine my beliefs so i often call him out on certain things....what started my topic was his insinuation that i had joined a cult. The purpose of this topic is to hopefully try and show why its not a cult. My church has a very gifted Pastor who is one of the better preachers out there...he is a literalist to a large degree but at this time i see no problem with literal interpretations of scripture...after all, most christian pastors in the US simply make stuff up....just listen to TBN! As far as my beliefs go, I am more inclined to believe based on biblical scripture rather than simply adopting secular wisdom. I dont really respect most secular wisdom...it has not helped our society. Noted Addictions expert, Patrick Carnes, says that our society is becoming massively addicted and that the next wave of addictions will be a veritable tsunami...fueled in large part by social media and electronic obsession...it all is connected...health care costs, the attitudes of society...so, nwr, I am very much in respect of jar when he challenges my beliefs...and am not attacking him so much as prodding him to challenge me. Lets examine some Bible verses that are used by dispensationalists to show some of their theology......

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 8 of 77 (708807)
    10-14-2013 5:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by NoNukes
    10-14-2013 4:41 PM


    Re: Dispensationalism
    Okay. I have no problem with you holding that position.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2013 4:41 PM NoNukes has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 9 of 77 (708808)
    10-14-2013 5:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by NoNukes
    10-14-2013 4:41 PM


    Re: Dispensationalism
    no nukes writes:
    I would suggest demonstrating that dispensationalism is worthy of carrying the pejoratives associated with the word cult.
    Yes, lets examine the term....what makes RC the "father church" and Protestants a "cult" for example? surely its not simply the newest step child that gets labled as such....hmmm..lets ask Mr.Dictionary...
    Cult--
    1.
    a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
    b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
    2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
    3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
    4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
    5.
    a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
    b. The object of such devotion.
    6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 10 of 77 (708809)
    10-14-2013 5:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
    10-14-2013 4:53 PM


    Re: Have You Ever Read The Bible?
    When it is marketing that is the right label.
    Why do you always seem to drift towards dispensationalism? What is it in the product that you like? Why do you buy the product?
    Are you suggesting that the common understanding for the first 1400-1500 years is the true way of interpreting scripture?
    No, I am saying though that the dispensationalists were selling a whole new product, one not available before.
    Keep in mind that the printing of books had barely begun and that 90% of people were illiterate anyway.
    HUH?
    Is that more nonsense that the dispensationalists sold you?
    If everyone was illiterate then who bought the books? Why did the printing press succeed?
    And are you claiming that no books existed before the printing press and moveable type were invented?
    Stop believing what you are told, particularly if it comes from a Priest or Pastor or Brother or Bishop. Challenge all of it. Doubt all of it. Question all of it?
    I am saying that today a great way to get rich is to be a preacher in the fundamentalist/evangelical/dispensationalist Chapters of Club christian. Tell folk they are saved, born agin.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 4:53 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 5:50 PM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 11 of 77 (708810)
    10-14-2013 5:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by jar
    10-14-2013 5:41 PM


    Re: Have You Ever Read The Bible?
    Is that more nonsense that the dispensationalists sold you?
    You seem to believe that I never think for myself. The church that I belong to now is very community oriented and is not wealthy at all. We are in the heart of the inner city.
    jar writes:
    If everyone was illiterate then who bought the books? Why did the printing press succeed?
    Good points, both. You are challenging me to think...this is one thing I always liked about you...
    And are you claiming that no books existed before the printing press and moveable type were invented?
    I am asking what it was that people believed back then that was in any way better or more logical than what is being taught now.
    jar writes:
    Stop believing what you are told, particularly if it comes from a Priest or Pastor or Brother or Bishop. Challenge all of it. Doubt all of it.
    Believe it or not, I question many things, but am not so doubtful as others might be. When you ask me if I have ever read the Bible, for example, I can say that I read it regularly now...and much of what it says makes sense to me...
    I am saying that today a great way to get rich is to be a preacher in the fundamentalist/evangelical/dispensationalist Chapters of Club christian. Tell folk they are saved, born again.
    Personally, I make no distinction between saved and lost, or unenlightened people. I do believe that Paul was inspired and not simply a Jew in search of building a franchise. The fact that his ideas differ from Jewish ideas only shows me that dispensationalists may be on to something when they talk of the difference between the Kingdom of Israel and the Mystery for the Gentiles. Can we discuss some of the scriptures and question what it is that is taught by these new kids on the block?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 5:41 PM jar has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 12 of 77 (708811)
    10-14-2013 6:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
    10-14-2013 5:50 PM


    Re: Have You Ever Read The Bible?
    Why do you always seem to drift towards dispensationalism? What is it in the product that you like? Why do you buy the product?

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 5:50 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 6:44 PM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 13 of 77 (708812)
    10-14-2013 6:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by jar
    10-14-2013 6:11 PM


    Re: Have You Ever Read The Bible?
    jar writes:
    Why do you always seem to drift towards dispensationalism? What is it in the product that you like? Why do you buy the product?
    Because the bible is explained in a way that makes more sense.
    I don't like the idea that Jesus was never born of a virgin and is likely not alive. I simply don't accept that. While I may allow that God expects us to question things and think for ourselves, I believe that many people deny the need for Christ or the power. This world will never solve its problems through logic, reason, and reality alone.
    Thats for starters.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 6:11 PM jar has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 14 of 77 (708814)
    10-14-2013 9:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
    10-14-2013 6:44 PM


    So dispensationalism has nothing to do with reality or what the Bible actaually says
    Phat writes:
    I don't like the idea that Jesus was never born of a virgin and is likely not alive. I simply don't accept that. While I may allow that God expects us to question things and think for ourselves, I believe that many people deny the need for Christ or the power. This world will never solve its problems through logic, reason, and reality alone.
    So dispensationalism has nothing to do with reality or what the Bible actually says but rather you buy into it because it tells you what you want to hear.
    It is marketed towards what YOU want to hear; and so an easy sell.
    You want Jesus to be alive and looking out for Phat, Jeeves instead of Jesus.
    Got it.
    It's all about Phat.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 6:44 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by Phat, posted 10-14-2013 10:50 PM jar has replied

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 15 of 77 (708815)
    10-14-2013 9:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by jar
    10-14-2013 5:30 PM


    Re: Dispensationalism
    Okay. I have no problem with you holding that position.
    Wow, that's very Protestant of you. Thanks.

    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
    I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
    Richard P. Feynman
    If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 5:30 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
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