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Author Topic:   Is Dispensationalism a cult?
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 77 (739370)
10-23-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
10-22-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Phat writes:
Thats also what Lucifer concluded as he chose to become satan.
So maybe his conclusion was correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 4:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-23-2014 1:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 77 (739372)
10-23-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
10-23-2014 1:06 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
You've never had a problem with the freewill part. Your problem seemed to be the obedience or else part. From some critics perspectives, the idea that God foreknew the outcome of anyone who jumped ship was indicting God as an autocrat "unworthy" of worship. To each his own, I suppose.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 2:37 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 77 (739373)
10-23-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 1:01 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Theodoric writes:
Not anything worthy of worship.
Humor me. Suspend your disbelief for a moment and describe to me a god that would be worthy of your worship?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 1:01 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2014 2:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-23-2014 5:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 64 of 77 (739383)
10-23-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
10-23-2014 1:35 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Phat writes:
Humor me. Suspend your disbelief for a moment and describe to me a god that would be worthy of your worship?
Sorry to interupt, but why would a God need worshipping?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 10-23-2014 1:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 65 of 77 (739389)
10-23-2014 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tangle
10-23-2014 2:11 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Tangle writes:
Sorry to interupt, but why would a God need worshipping?
An omni-impotent god needs worshipping to help him overcome that inferiority complex.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 10-23-2014 2:11 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 77 (739392)
10-23-2014 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
10-23-2014 1:31 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Phat writes:
Your problem seemed to be the obedience or else part.
Yes, I do have a problem with the "or else" part. I'm guessing that you have a problem with "or else" in any other context.
Give me your wallet, or else. Do what I say for the rest of your life, or else. What's the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-23-2014 1:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 10-26-2014 10:17 AM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9131
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 67 of 77 (739423)
10-23-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
10-23-2014 1:35 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
I cannot conceive of such a thing. As there is no evidence for a god, it is fruitless for me to try to conjure up some sort of image of such a magical being. Whatever I imagined would be woefully inadequate compared to what it would have to be in order to be a god.
Christians set their requirements for a god pitifully low.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 10-23-2014 1:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-26-2014 10:22 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 77 (739648)
10-26-2014 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
10-23-2014 2:37 PM


Discerning Character
ringo writes:
Yes, I do have a problem with the "or else" part. I'm guessing that you have a problem with "or else" in any other context.
Give me your wallet, or else. Do what I say for the rest of your life, or else.
I have problems with people whom I dont know or trust attempting to tell me what to do...thats a fact.
What's the difference?
Seems like the problem stems from lack of trust. Should a God have to earn our trust or should He make us take a leap of faith?
Lets say that trust is derived from knowledge. Perhaps lack of trust implies lack of knowledge.
Many say that evidence is their only reliable standard for discernment of knowledge and character. This seems honest and fair enough.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 2:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 10-26-2014 3:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 77 (739649)
10-26-2014 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
10-23-2014 5:51 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Theodoric writes:
Christians set their requirements for a god pitifully low.
That He first loved us is enough for me.
Who am I to require anything more than forgiveness and love?
Some folks require that their god--if real--cure cancer, heal all disease and clean up the planet. Seeing no evidence for such a being, they conclude one does not exist and attempt to replace him with human global communion and hopeful cooperation. All I can say is good luck with that one.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-23-2014 5:51 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 77 (739680)
10-26-2014 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
10-26-2014 10:17 AM


Re: Discerning Character
Phat writes:
Should a God have to earn our trust or should He make us take a leap of faith?
I can see why we'd have to take a leap of faith for a non-existent god. I can also see why a false god would want us to take a leap of faith - because that faith would be misplaced and could not be earned. However, I have trouble understanding why a true god would want us to take a leap of faith.
Phat writes:
Lets say that trust is derived from knowledge. Perhaps lack of trust implies lack of knowledge.
I don't think that's it at all.
We start out trusting our parents completely. They are omnpotent. They can do no wrong. But the more we learn about them, the more we know that that isn't true. Maybe you can't trust your father to come home sober on payday. As we grow up and become more like them, we learn that they are just like us.
So I think trust starts out as a big pile which gets smaller as we learn, not bigger. Of course, our ability to tust does become more reliable as a result.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 10-26-2014 10:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:19 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 77 (747600)
01-17-2015 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
10-26-2014 3:20 PM


Re: Discerning Character
ringo writes:
I can see why we'd have to take a leap of faith for a non-existent god. I can also see why a false god would want us to take a leap of faith - because that faith would be misplaced and could not be earned. However, I have trouble understanding why a true god would want us to take a leap of faith.
Are you suggesting that we need to earn our faith?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 10-26-2014 3:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 11:55 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 77 (747623)
01-17-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
01-17-2015 8:19 AM


Re: Discerning Character
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I can also see why a false god would want us to take a leap of faith - because that faith would be misplaced and could not be earned.
Are you suggesting that we need to earn our faith?
No, I'm suggesting that a false god would fail to earn our trust/faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 04-01-2015 7:58 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 77 (754874)
04-01-2015 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
01-17-2015 11:55 AM


Re: Discerning Character
Sounds like you are proposing that a true God would provide us the power to believe.
If so, would this not detract from free will?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 04-02-2015 12:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 77 (754916)
04-01-2015 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
10-14-2013 10:26 AM


Product Liability
jar writes:
Why do you always seem to drift towards dispensationalism? What is it in the product that you like? Why do you buy the product?
The product that we are discussing is religion--or--more appropriately in my mind--a relationship with GOD and/or a belief and pattern regarding my life interacting with other lives on this dust speck of a planet in this vast universe.
What initially drew me towards dispensationalism was the relationship that I had with the late father of my Pastor. Though the family was a bit more conservative than I, the man lived a selfless life. I first met him at one of the state detention centers which I volunteered at. Additionally, his sons were friends with my "son"...my younger friend Mike. Tha family reached out to the community and helped them. The elder Pastor had three sons, two of whom became policemen (another way to serve the community) while the one son became a Pastor.
My church is full of strong individuals. I don't agree with everything that is taught, and I question many things though I stick by what I believe.
jar writes:
What is it in the product that you like?
To start with, allow me to also explain what I don't like about the product which you bought. In another thread I asked
Phat writes:
Joe Wood believed that the Warlord(who had enough food for everybody rather than just those who believed in him) should have fed everybody.
What is the difference between offering someone food and force feeding everyone so as not to exclude anyone?
You claim that a God who picks and chooses is in fact evil. I maintain that God chose everyone but that some folk never bother to respond. Salvation by Grace assures me that having chosen, I have elected to be adopted. You may argue that this is an easy sell, seeing as how I don't have to do a lot of work.
I disagree, knowing that work is expected.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 10-14-2013 10:26 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 75 of 77 (754974)
04-02-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
04-01-2015 7:58 AM


Re: Discerning Character
Phat writes:
Sounds like you are proposing that a true God would provide us the power to believe.
If so, would this not detract from free will?
As I've said before, I think "free will" is pretty much a nonsensical concept. It's mostly a loophole that religionists use to absolve God of any responsibility for His actions.
I don't know what "providing us with the power to believe" means. I'd put the power to believe in a similar category with the power to catch a cold.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 04-01-2015 7:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 04-03-2015 9:28 PM ringo has replied

  
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