Human Spirit

Hi Stile,I am of the opinion that although in the apparent scheme of things what happens on a planet 3rd from our sun in such a vast universe does not matter.No more than perhaps a cocapod scampering around the glass of my marine fishtank does.Or the asexual reproduction of the yeast cells in my sourdough starter in a container in my fridge.But alas...............................these things tend to add up.There is a cumulative effect that does matter.(at least to me)Just think if that little quantum microtubal in your fathers sperm was not fluctutating at the right frequency you may not be here to ponder the matter of life not mattering . I suppose it is true we assign what we feel matters or not.
Again you hit on a significant part of our human spirit.

I agree, I'm of the same opinion.There are others, though, (some through no fault of their own) who cannot look at such information and make it a positive thing.
They fear the unknown so much that to have their minds dwell on such an idea causes a lot of anxiety and sometimes even pain.They find other ways to comfort their thoughts. I can see how the idea of an all-powerful, all-caring, all-controlling God would be helpful... but then there's the drawback of resting your faith on an illusion that may conflict with reality at some point in time. But, maybe... such a caveat isn't important to those who go that route.. and they can then access all the benefits of the human spirit anyway.It doesn't make sense to me. But... making sense "to Stile" isn't a requirement for someone else's spirituality. Yes. There are plenty of things that matter to me as well.In fact, let's say there actually was an absolute, objective "meaning of life" that we became aware of.
Even given that fact... I'm still of the opinion that things that matter to me are more important (to me) and therefore would take precedent over this absolute, objective "meaning of life" just because I am me.Therefore, it doesn't even matter whether or not life "really matters" in any objective, absolute way. It would be interesting... but it really wouldn't make a difference in what's important to me. I may choose to accept it as important, but again.. that would be because I find it subjectively important to me... not because of it's objective nature.The idea that an absolute, objective meaning of life (regardless of whether or not it exists) should actually have any power over anyone just because it's objective, or from some Creator is based on fear, not truth.

Hey, Folks,Had to comment.I like this whole discussion.Well done, guys

I think what you are talking about is optimism rather than faith. Optimism implies the awareness of possible failure where faith does not. The allowance for doubt is a critical difference. So when faith is not a substitute for reality it is not faith but merely optimism. It is an interesting comparison though as one seems rational while the other does not and yet they both return similar results.I notice that we have switched from talking about spirit to talking about faith. Is spirit the essence of a thing or is spirit a separate entity? It seems to me that when people talk about the spirit they are implying that our corporal selves are some sort of off shoot from our spirit which is the principal entity. This is different from the idea of esprit de corps which is dependant on the corps for it's existence. Sure but when I am drunk I know that I am drunk. That is what I meant by the Proverbs quote. Sometimes I will imagine that some string of events is a good sign that I should buy a lottery ticket but in the end I realize that it is all a load of malarkey. At the seat of my reason or 'in my heart' I know that a coincidence of numbers is not really a sign that I should buy a lottery ticket.So you either believe it or you don't, human inconsistencies not withstanding.

I agree that the definition of "faith" is rather vague and mostly useless.I took a music 101 course in University about 10 years ago or so. The professor said that the definition of "music" was, basically:"Any combination of sounds or silences that anyone considers to be music."Which is, really, kind of a useless definition.
But there are "formal compositions" that are just recordings of what most of us would call "noise." Or even simply absolute silence. And these are considered to be "music."I think "faith" is of the same sort of thing. It's what we need it to be, within the realm of the idea of "faith."
You may not think what I call "faith" is faith... just the same that many people don't think what other's call "music" is music... but that's just not how it works (all the time).For me, this optimism vs. faith issue is too fine of a hair to split. To me, what we're talking about is "faith" whether or not it can or can't be called optimism if you look at it from another angle. To me, they are the same thing. "Human spirit" is an aspect of faith, as "optimism" is an aspect of faith. Neither is required to have faith, but most people use those terms or something similar when discussing faith. I don't think "spirit" is a separate entity from us in any way. I don't think we have "a body" and "a spirit" that can be separated. But I'm open to be proven wrong.
However... I would like to add that I don't have a problem with someone believing otherwise either... thinking that the human spirit is separate from the human body could just be their own method for dealing with their spiritual side. As long as they don't use that knowledge to hurt other people... I don't really care how the conceptual idea is held. Yes, I agree that "a separate spirit that is the principal entity" is the commonly-used way to think about these things. Sorry if I caused any confusion assuming otherwise. I'm more of the "esprit de corps" way, if you're wondering. But, really, I don't think such distinctions matter so much. I think what matters is how you use your spiritual ideas... how they help you, how you gain strength from them... and whether or not you use those ideas to hurt other people.I think the human spirit can be used to gain great personal strength... or used to cause great pain to other people. Therefore, I'm more worried about how it's used rather than where it comes from.

I was once in love with this wonderful woman. She was a beauty of Irish decent, blazing blue eyes and golden hair so thick and shiney.She had a very special presence about her. It's hard to put into words. We broke up, and about a month later at my place I found a shirt of hers. A white simple womans blouse button up front.I remember holding that little shirt up and marveling at how physically small it was. How someone with such a small frame had such a overwhelming presence. I almost could not imagine her as so small. Her silent shirt filled me with loss and I cried.We are so much more than the sum of our parts.

Perhaps.I can't say you're wrong... I haven't studied the subject like that (formally or scientifically). Neither do I know if study of the subject has advanced to the point of being able to make any conclusions about the matter yet.However, I could just as easily also say "maybe the sum of our parts is just a lot more powerful than you give credit for."It doesn't take away anything from your story.
Your story is a good example of the power of the human spirit (yours as well as hers).
The thing to take away from the story is that the human spirit is a powerful tool.Where that power comes from or how it comes about is (to me)... secondary and unrequired when tapping into that power.You may think the human spirit is powerful because "we are more than the sum of our parts."
I may think the human spirit is powerful because "the sum of our parts really is that powerful."Does such a minor point matter?To me, not at all.
I don't think our spirit is separate from us. But, really, I don't care whether or not our spirit is separate from us. If tomorrow I found out, evidentially, that our spirit is indeed separate from us... it wouldn't alter anything important about how powerful the human spirit is to me in any way at all.To me... that is very important.(I'm not saying the following applies to you, now I'm just rambling in a very general sense)
If the power of your human spirit relies on something... then you may be doing it wrong and not getting all the power out of it that you can.
If it relies on believing "we are more than the sum of our parts.." what happens if you ever realize we are not?
If it relies on believing "we are not more than the sum of our parts.." what happens if you ever realize we are?
If it relies on believing in an idea of (say) an all powerful-God that protects us and controls the universe... what happens if you ever realize this can't possibly be true?
If it relies on anything at all... what happens if you ever realize that such a thing isn't true or valid?The human spirit doesn't have to rely on anything.
Just as your arm doesn't have to rely on a concept.
You have an arm merely by being born human (if you're lucky, anyway...)
You have a human spirit merely by being born human (if you're lucky, anyway...)You get it for free... taking the free human spirit and adding a complication to it (basing it on a concept of some kind...) can weaken it.
What if you based the existence of your arm on the idea that it fits into your shirts? Then you gain or lose some weight... Does this mean you no longer have an arm? Of course not... in the same vein... maybe we are not more than "the sum of our parts"... but that wouldn't mean the feelings that overwhelmed you on finding that shirt are any less powerful than they were before.To be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with holding these ideas.
In fact, if you know that you gain strength by thinking this way, then I would actually encourage you to continue.
I'm just saying that there are alternatives, and they may or may not be a better path for you.I'm just saying I think it can weaken our confidence in our human spirit if we base the idea of the human spirit on anything at all. Because it isn't necessary to do so.
Basing your idea of the human spirit on such things opens up the future possibility to finding out that they may be false... then what happens to your idea of the human spirit?It's quite possible to think these ideas are true (in a "best educated guess based on my experience as a human so far" sort of way)... and not base your idea of the human spirit on them. That way, regardless of whether or not the idea is ever proven false or true... you will always be able to rely on and have access to the powers of your human spirit.I think that's a better way to go about it.TL/DR (Too Long, Didn't Read)
Having said all that: My response pretty much boils down to:If this works for you, keep it up.
It doesn't work for me... so I do something different.However, the crux of your story: Is equally powerful to the both of us.
Well, probably you a bit more 'cause I never met her... But I hope you see what I mean.I see no connection from your story to the conclusion that "we are so much more than the sum of our parts."
(I don't mean any offence... I don't know how to say such a thing without sounding condescending... it's not as if I know the phrase to be false, or anything...)

I suppose my point was that I was confronted with a physical representation of this person a small framed, unassuming delicate person.But she was not small, nor delicate; she would fill a room.This little shirt (a part of her) contrasted so explicitly her spirit or je ne sais quoi.
It was this blatant contrast that opened the flood gates of my emotions.We are so much more than the sum of our parts.
(I guess it is a :"ya had to be there" kind of moment.)

We are the sum of each other's parts. The human spirit is collective.

I think if we can define the idea and identify where it comes from that we can shed some light on how it influences our behaviour.Some people are kind and some are not. If we are all possessed with the same human spirit then human spirit is not the quality that determines if we are kind or not. Perhaps it is just a matter of which stuff we keep in our junk drawers. Some people walk through the park with the weight of the world on their back and others can slog through the mud light as a butterfly.

Good point. I don't think we're all possessed with the same human spirit.
People are different... that extends to our connection/availability/desire to use our human spirit.I think the human spirit is an aspect of having an intelligent mind.
Therefore, it's based on our brains (...somehow...)
Therefore... some people will be able to use it better than others. Just as some people are able to use their arms and legs better than others.Of course, what's "better" is kind of up to the individual. Especially since it isn't exactly as physical as "arms and legs" are.
This is the part where we get to make what we have work for us. The limitations in controlling/affecting our feelings are only imposed by our own imagination (as far as I can tell).I don't think the human spirit determines if we're kind or not. I think we do that ourselves through the decisions we make and the priorities we hold. (Do we want to help others? Or help ourselves? At which times?) I agree that this observation is true.I guess the interesting stuff gets back to your first statement: If we can define the idea and identify where it comes from... maybe we can learn how to manipulate it/use it for our own benefit as much as possible.My definition is along the lines of the junk-drawer idea.
The human spirit can be whatever we need it to be in order to affect or control our emotional status.
From what I can tell, it's nothing more than using our imagination to craft ideas that affect our state of mind. The resulting state of mind can have physical results (like laughing, or rage).Something along the lines of this:
-our "physical results" are governed by our brain/body releasing/controlling certain chemicals and/or electrical impulses. Like an adrenaline spike when something surprises us.
-it seems to me that it is initiated by our brain's perception of the world (from our 5 senses, through triggering certain areas of our brain, resulting in physical changes)
-it occurs to me that this process can be "manually" kickstarted or controlled by simply imagining the correct idea to trigger those same certain areas of our brain (think of something excited, become excited... brain still releases adrenaline).If we're scared, it is possible to rely on our human spirit to imagine an idea that gives us the strength and courage to not-be-scared.
If we're sad, it is possible to rely on our human spirit to imagine an idea that gives us the feeling of being happy.
If we're angry, it is possible to rely on our human spirit to imagine an idea that lessons our frustrations.It also seems to work in reverse, though... we can rely on our human spirit to make ourselves (and sometimes others) angry, scared and confused....or something like that, maybe?

Well I have been thinking about this subject off and on for a bit. I am not sure that I have much to show for it. Well OK but what measure of control do we have? I think that so much of our nature depends on the luck of the draw. Both genetically and environmentally.I had a brother who suffered terribly from depression. No doubt his experiences were different than mine but we both grew up in the same house. What was it that made everything grey for him and not for me? It was nothing that I did. Of if it was something that I did then I did it for reasons that I do not control. We are who we are.I do believe that we can train out brains to behave differently over time but that impetus and that ability has to come from who we are originally. This is why I think that humility is the only proper course. Even if you are a genius it is probably not your fault.I also had some thought about the idea of a human spirit or spirit in general being dualistic in nature. In that it requires a distinction between ourselves and our parts. How can we possibly be anything more than the sum of our parts? I think that it is more likely a case of not knowing what all of our parts are.

I think the measure of control we have is different for each person.
I also think it's possible to get better at controlling such things as well.I certainly agree that genetics and our environment are large factors on the control we have of our human spirit.Once we are aware of it, and use our intelligence to focus on it and practice using it... I think we can increase our level of control. But I do not think this would "release us" from genetic and environmental factors completely. Then again, maybe certain people would be able to reach such a height?Our control can be affected by brain damage.
It can also be affected by overwhelming emotions brought on by the environment we find ourselves in.But, it can also be affected by ourselves using our own intelligence.I'm just talking about doing what we're able to do I'm not trying to imply that we can do more or become super-humans or anything like that. Unfortunately, I can't do anything but agree.
My wife suffers from depression at times (she's a rape/torture/kidnapping victim when she was young, has now been diagnosed with Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder).
She certainly has a difficult time dealing with her human spirit. And (at certain times) it is very clear that her environment is the direct factor causing certain issues. It's also clear that she makes progress over the years and learns how to control certain levels and aspects. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.I agree that "that impetus and ability has to come from who we are originally.."
I think that the ability is nothing more than our imagination and our awareness. Those are fairly basic abilities. Although (sadly) still not available to everyone they certainly are available to the vast majority. At least as a starting point, anyway.But what do you mean by "humility is the only proper course?"
Can we not use our imagination to stimulate certain feelings within ourselves and also be humble? Or were you talking about something else I'm just not picking up on?Maybe you mean this along the lines of arrogance-caused-blindness? I'd agree with that, if it's what you're implying. I agree... but I would add that this is too general of a statement to be true all the time. I'm sure there are many pathways to "genius."Going back to a physical example.
There are obviously people born with athletic abilities beyond others. However, even the great naturals are made better through physical training and practice.
And, maybe the not-so-athletically-endowed will ever play competitive sports, but they too are quite capable of "getting better" (from wherever they are at) through practice.I think our human spirit is the same way.
We all have different levels, and we're all capable of reaching different heights.
If we're interested in increasing our proficiency of controlling or dealing with our emotions and human spirit... this idea of working with our imagination and how it affects our psychological status seems to be a pathway for practice.Just as it is imperative for us to exercise our physical side in order to be healthy... I think it's equally important to exercise our human spirit. We're emotional beasts. To deny such a thing seems... needlessly difficult, to me. I think it's better to accept what we are and use our abilities to our full advantage. I completely agree with this aspect. I think that "the amazing things humans are capable of" is not a case of us being more than the sum of our parts... just a case of us not quite understanding what all our parts can do.Sort of an atheist vs. theist idea going on in there somewhere, too...I still don't see this as an important issue to nail down, though. It's the stuff we can identify and what we want to do with them that's interesting to me.

I think that from these facts we get the idea of spirit or maybe even the awareness of spirit. On the one hand we are clearly the result of the hardware (our brains) and at the same time we are somehow apart from it. Or at least it feels that way to me and I think to pretty much everybody. There is a separation between ourselves and our bodies. Almost like our 'selves' are a projection of the body but in our case the image has some control over the projector. A bit of an aside I guess but it was just to reiterate the idea that we are not really in control even though it feels like we are. We are who we are because of our circumstances. Our genetics and our environment.If the difference between a brilliant scientist and a plumber all comes down to the hand that they were dealt then what room is there for pride? I mean not everyone can be a plumber no matter how hard they try. Just because we would all be in deep shit without the plumbers that's no reason for them to be uppity about it. It is a hopeless loop because the things that we want to do are a result of who we are to begin with. I hereby coin the term 'a fractal trap'. Yet the fact that we can step back and look at who we are and make adjustments is evidence to the contrary. I think that this sensation of a separation between mind and body is the source of religion and probably a side effect of self awareness?Am I even on topic?