He could cage them if he was responsible but instead he offers to protect you from them.
Are we getting back to the old "blame God for evil" game? sheesh! Perhaps God foreknew that if evil were completely eliminated we would be forced robots. The very idea of evil, according to some, is the dark side of free will.
On the contrary, Hell is not a human fault. God created it. He didn't have to. To use yet another yet another yet another analogy, if you dig a hole in your front yard it most definitely is your fault if the mailman falls in.
To use yet another yet another yet another analogy, if you dig a hole in your front yard it most definitely is your fault if the mailman falls in.
So what if the mailman was entitled to "fall into" something else besides you? What if depriving him of that hole meant that he was eternally predestined to deliver mail to you and only you? *oh nevermind, i give up*
Why is freewill basically a joke? Look at it like a movie script. Within the script, characters say the lines they are assigned. Imagine, however, if the director allowed them to ad lib. Would the movie still be the whim of the director?
Modern neuroscience is actually demonstrating that the notion of free will may actually be somewhat of an illusion.
With regards to scripture, what is interesting is that god is actually undermining the whole notion of free will. He indicated he provided a sense of autonomy to his creation but at the same time gave instructions for how they should behave. That in and of itself indicates that free will, as denoted by the Bible is also not truly 'free'.
One thing to note is the whole concept of 'god's plan'. If one ascribes to that notion, that brings up your movie analogy. I also like to use the concept of a video game.
As a player of the game, it appears as though my character has 'free will'. I have (mostly) freedom of movement and can adjust tactics accordingly to achieve an objective. But ultimately, I am beholden to the script; i.e. the plan. As such, I can never truly experience free will since I am actually a slave to the programming of the game. The same is true in the case of 'god's plan'.
"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"
With regards to scripture, what is interesting is that god is actually undermining the whole notion of free will. He indicated he provided a sense of autonomy to his creation but at the same time gave instructions for how they should behave. That in and of itself indicates that free will, as denoted by the Bible is also not truly 'free'.
Heh... I never applied that concept to the Bible before. Interesting... if God wanted us to choose Him freely, why send us the Bible or His Son at all? That doesn't seem to be a "free choice" it seems to be God stacking the deck in His favour. Making His presence known in any way whatsoever really removes the whole "free choice" aspect... if that's what He was going for, anyway.
Like Star Wars (and pretty much any other movie dealing with the concept). "Bringing balance to the force" apparently means that the good guys win and the bad guys are defeated.
It may be a happy ending, but it's hardly "balanced."
if God wanted us to choose Him freely, why send us the Bible or His Son at all? That doesn't seem to be a "free choice" it seems to be God stacking the deck in His favour
Precisely. You can go one further and listen to individuals who indicate that god 'is watching out for them' or 'will help them in a time of need'. Once again, this demonstrates that god is willing to intervene to achieve his goal. And again, that undermines free will.
Like Star Wars (and pretty much any other movie dealing with the concept). "Bringing balance to the force" apparently means that the good guys win and the bad guys are defeated.
And that archetype exists in the Bible as well. Evil is 'defeated' in the end. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings saga was heavily influenced by his Christian upbringing and you can see signs of that in his writings. The 'good' characters fighting the uber evil Sauron.
P.S. Nice to meet another fellow Canadian by the way. I live in the USA now but I grew up in Southern, Ontario near Lake Erie.
Look at it like a movie script. Within the script, characters say the lines they are assigned. Imagine, however, if the director allowed them to ad lib. Would the movie still be the whim of the director?
The director in this case is also the editor. He can cut out any ad libs that he doesn't approve of. The actors have the "freedom" to say what they want but it has no effect on the outcome.
On a side note, the director is also the script writer. If the actor did come up with a brilliant line that isn't in the script, the script writer isn't omniscient.
so in other words, you dont feel as if you actually have free will i take it....
Do you have any objections to obeying Jesus...as well as getting to know Him?
if God gave you a chance to voice your objections to the way men wrote about and perceived Him...what would you say...provided He gave you the freedom (grace) to say whatever was on your mind and heart? Additionally how would you want Him to be?
Do you have any objections to obeying Jesus...as well as getting to know Him?
If you've read my posts you ought to know that I do advocate obeying Jesus - not because of who he is/was but because it's the right thing to do.
Phat writes:
if God gave you a chance to voice your objections to the way men wrote about and perceived Him...what would you say...?
What would I say to Him? Nothing. If He exists, He already knows what I think.
What would I say to Christians? Read my posts.
Phat writes:
Additionally how would you want Him to be?
I think I've mentioned before, I'd like Him to leave me alone. I can do without the "joy" that Christians exhibit here. I'd also like to do without Hell. If I had to choose between the two, it would be a toss up.
Do I have the free will to choose between two bad options? Thanks.
Evil is 'defeated' in the end. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings saga was heavily influenced by his Christian upbringing and you can see signs of that in his writings. The 'good' characters fighting the uber evil Sauron.
Yeah, for sure. I do like those sorts of stories. They make for moving endings.
It just irks me when they are touted as "maintaining balance" or "keeping things even."
Entirely wiping out the threat of evil is a good thing. But it's not balanced or even, it's incredibly lopsided to the side of good.
"We're on an airplane where the wings are balanced between good and evil" "Oh no! The evil side is attacking the good wing of the plane and bent on a crash landing for everyone!" "Shall we beat them back to their wing to maintain balance?" "No! Let's maintain the balance by completely destroying their wing!" "..." "Wait... do we want to maintain balance so the plane still flies... or totally defeat evil?" "Totally defeat the evil! It's the right thing to do! Let's go!!!" "But without their side of the balance, the plane will crash anyway... doesn't evil get what they want then?" "SPARTAAAAAA!!!!"
It kind of reduces otherwise-decent movies to Monty Python skits.
P.S. Nice to meet another fellow Canadian by the way. I live in the USA now but I grew up in Southern, Ontario near Lake Erie.
Welcome to EvC. It's nice here. Lots to read and follow and learn and laugh about. And the logistics of the forum software are pretty cool.
It just irks me when they are touted as "maintaining balance" or "keeping things even."
Entirely wiping out the threat of evil is a good thing. But it's not balanced or even, it's incredibly lopsided to the side of good.
For Star Wars, the Force was "balanced" when it was in its natural state before the Dark Side came and corrupted it.
The only way to bring it back into balance was to eliminate the Dark Side.
It'd be like having a double pan balance with nothing on it being the force in balance, and then you start piling up shit (dark side) on one side of it. The only way to get it back into balance is to remove the shit from the scale.
Its not that there's a pile of good force on one side and the dark side on the other. The Force is the whole scale, it gets out of balance when you start piling shit on it.
For Star Wars, the Force was "balanced" when it was in its natural state before the Dark Side came and corrupted it.
Allegorically, this is also what happens in Genesis. Humans live in paradise before the fall, when evil is introduced to them. Although arguably, evil already existed, but had yet to manifest for mankind.
Its not that there's a pile of good force on one side and the dark side on the other. The Force is the whole scale, it gets out of balance when you start piling shit on it.
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