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Author Topic:   APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION of Pope Francis
Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1 of 62 (712149)
11-27-2013 3:53 PM


Pope Francis has quickly won my heart and my respect (event though I am not a Roman Catholic) due to his actions and his intelligence in regards to matters of the faith.

He recently published his official platform, Apostolic Exhortation which is a delightful read and a vigorous defense of what it means, at least in the Popes mind, to be a Christian. Some excerpts:

1.THE JOY OF THE GOSPEL fills the hearts and lives of all who encounter Jesus. Those who accept his offer of salvation are set free from sin, sorrow, inner emptiness and loneliness. With Christ joy is constantly born anew. In this Exhortation I wish to encourage the Christian faithful to embark upon a new chapter of evangelization marked by this joy, while pointing out new paths for the Churchs journey in years to come.

As an aside to jar and Ringo, the Pope stresses works as an action that rekindles the heart of joy found within us.

I can say that the most beautiful and natural expressions of joy which I have seen in my life were in poor people who had little to hold on to. I also think of the real joy shown by others who, even amid pressing professional obligations, were able to preserve, in detachment and simplicity, a heart full of faith. In their own way, all these instances of joy flow from the infinite love of God, who has revealed himself to us in Jesus Christ. I never tire of repeating those words of Benedict XVI which take us to the very heart of the Gospel: Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction

I was onced asked what it meant to walk in the Spirit. The Pope explains it magnificently.

Though it is true that this mission demands great generosity on our part, it would be wrong to see it as a heroic individual undertaking, for it is first and foremost the Lords work, surpassing anything which we can see and understand. Jesus is the first and greatest evangelizer.[9] In every activity of evangelization, the primacy always belongs to God, who has called us to cooperate with him and who leads us on by by the power of his Spirit.

As I present this topic for promotion, I am still reading the 49 page Exhortation, and urge participants to do likewise. For the first time since John Paul II I can say that this man is truly saved---a born again Pope.

I like his take on economics as well.

It is vital that government leaders and financial leaders take heed and broaden their horizons, working to ensure that all citizens have dignified work, education and healthcare. Why not turn to God and ask him to inspire their plans? I am firmly convinced that openness to the transcendent can bring about a new political and economic mindset which would help to break down the wall of separation between the economy and the common good of society.

Faith & Belief, please.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by frako, posted 11-28-2013 11:55 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 11-28-2013 12:06 PM Phat has responded

AdminNosy
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Posts: 4753
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 62 (712151)
11-27-2013 9:08 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION of Pope Francis thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
Tangle
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Posts: 5068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 3 of 62 (712161)
11-28-2013 4:07 AM


This pope may yet turn out to be a decent bloke, he's proposing some pretty big reforms in the Vatican and seems to actually want to do more for the poor rather than just make things worse for them like the last two.

God knows he needs to sort it out, the catholic church is all but defunct in the Western world, its abuses are now in plain view. He can only sell his snake oil to people without TV now.

He's a bloody Jesuit though, the worst of the worse, the catholic SAS.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

frako
Member
Posts: 2705
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 4 of 62 (712185)
11-28-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
11-27-2013 3:53 PM


Yea i like the new pope too, its about time the church stops picking on the gays, and hoarding wealth like they can take it with them.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 11-27-2013 3:53 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 62 (712186)
11-28-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
11-27-2013 3:53 PM


Phat writes:

As an aside to jar and Ringo, the Pope stresses works as an action that rekindles the heart of joy found within us.


Not that I would ever be argumentative about anything but your quote seems to say the opposite:
quote:
I can say that the most beautiful and natural expressions of joy which I have seen in my life were in poor people who had little to hold on to. I also think of the real joy shown by others who, even amid pressing professional obligations, were able to preserve, in detachment and simplicity, a heart full of faith.

Poor people are full of joy and "others" get joy from faith.

So let's make more poor people and spread the joy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 11-27-2013 3:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 11-28-2013 1:44 PM ringo has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 6 of 62 (712190)
11-28-2013 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
11-28-2013 12:06 PM


Human Foibles Of Phat
I have nothing against being poor as long as I lived in a poor country. My problem is being poor while living in a wealthy country.

Hence my anger against the Republican party.

Look what the Pope says.

quote:
Just as the commandment Thou shalt not kill sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say thou shalt not to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless.(...)In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the sacralized excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 11-28-2013 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 11-29-2013 10:39 AM Phat has responded

AZPaul3
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Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 7 of 62 (712194)
11-28-2013 3:02 PM


How can anyone give any heed to the mutterings of some religious fanatic? The same self-serving articles of faith, as always, without contributing anything of value to the human condition.

Let me just give one part that bothered me. Paragraph 34:

In todays world of instant communication and occasionally biased media coverage, the message we preach runs a greater risk of being distorted or reduced to some of its secondary aspects. In this way certain issues which are part of the Churchs moral teaching are taken out of the context which gives them their meaning.

To paraphrase:

We know God rails against contraception, hates condoms and we would forbid their use everywhere for all time. The world's distortion of this holy teaching by pointing to the slaughter of millions from AIDS as a direct consequence of this holy teaching is of no meaningful concern to us.

This Exhortation has nothing of value for the world.

Now, if he really wanted to do something, like maybe, just for jollies, actually follow the teachings and requirements of his supposed lord and savior then maybe the world would be moved to listen. Announce that the church will sell off all of its treasures and distribute the proceeds to the poor and needy around the world. Donate the archives to a consortium of universities. Turn Vatican City into a museum to the benefit of all the children's hospitals in Europe. Travel the world as a pauper from town to town on the small charities of others giving his homilies in the parks and on the street corners.

But he cannot do this. He cannot live by the words of his Jesus because he does not believe the words of his Jesus. Except for those that give him more money and power.

Evangelize, evangelize! Bring us more people who will tithe into our treasuries. Amen.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : more change


Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 8 of 62 (712222)
11-29-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
11-28-2013 1:44 PM


Re: Human Foibles Of Phat
Phat writes:

My problem is being poor while living in a wealthy country.


It's better to be poor in a rich country than to be poor in a poor country.

Phat writes:

Hence my anger against the Republican party.


The US has a long history of people with no slaves defending slavery and people with no capital defending capitalism. Evolution has produced social behaviour in many species but the insane espousal of "individualism" in some humans is counterproductive not only for the species as a whole but for many of the individuals themselves.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 11-28-2013 1:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-30-2013 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 9 of 62 (712250)
11-30-2013 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
11-29-2013 10:39 AM


Re: Human Foibles Of Phat
ringo writes:

...the insane espousal of "individualism" in some humans is counterproductive not only for the species as a whole but for many of the individuals themselves.

I know that its folly to desire to be rich. I dont ask for much. We had a union rally yesterday in front of the Wal Mart, where the employees work for close to minimum wage and who have to go on medicaid to get health insurance. Our signs read that we want the average employee to make $25,000 a year at full-time...which is assuredly NOT wealthy. The Pope mentions the insanity of the competitive nature of capitalism...I too get outraged when I have, in my lifetime, become part of the marginalized people.

The challenge for me as to how the latter part of my life plays out is whether I can handle being poor. Im too tired to do the work required to earn the same wage that was once handed to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 11-29-2013 10:39 AM ringo has responded

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 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-01-2013 1:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 10 of 62 (712268)
12-01-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
11-30-2013 12:43 PM


Re: Human Foibles Of Phat
Phat writes:

Our signs read that we want the average employee to make $25,000 a year at full-time...which is assuredly NOT wealthy.


I think one year in my life I made $25,000 (Canadian).

Phat writes:

The challenge for me as to how the latter part of my life plays out is whether I can handle being poor.


Maybe you should try being poor now so you know what to expect.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-30-2013 12:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 11 of 62 (712325)
12-02-2013 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-01-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Human Foibles Of Phat
I think one year in my life I made $25,000 (Canadian).

What, like, as a minimum?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-01-2013 1:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-03-2013 7:37 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 12-03-2013 10:51 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 12 of 62 (712347)
12-03-2013 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
12-02-2013 4:22 PM


The Pope is against wealth but not survival
ringo is not a wealthy man, but he seems to think that 25k is wealthy. Here in America, our average wage citywide is closer to 30K and...*for emphasis* this is NOT even close to wealthy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-02-2013 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jon, posted 12-03-2013 7:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 10:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 13 of 62 (712348)
12-03-2013 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-03-2013 7:37 AM


Re: The Pope is against wealth but not survival
Here in America, our average wage citywide is closer to 30K and...*for emphasis* this is NOT even close to wealthy.

Of course not; especially if you measure wealth in terms of people who earn receive income in the billions of dollars a year.

But $30,000 is a comfortable enough amount of money. It's nothing to complain about.


Love your enemies!

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 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-03-2013 7:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 14 of 62 (712359)
12-03-2013 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-03-2013 7:37 AM


Re: The Pope is against wealth but not survival
ringo is not a wealthy man,

How do you know? Maybe he's sitting on a pile of cash and just likes to live out in the middle of nowhere... and having to go to the library to use the internet.

but he seems to think that 25k is wealthy.

Doesn't seem that way to me... all he said was that one year he made 25k.

Here in America, our average wage citywide is closer to 30K and...*for emphasis* this is NOT even close to wealthy.

No shit. 30k sucks. I made more than that right out of college.

Most of your money would go to expenses, and there'd be hardly any left to have fun with.

But you shouldn't measure wealth as "income". Wealth is owning land, real estate, assets, capital, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-03-2013 7:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 15 of 62 (712366)
12-03-2013 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
12-02-2013 4:22 PM


Re: Human Foibles Of Phat
Catholic Scientist writes:

What, like, as a minimum?


Maximum, as in "the most I've ever made in a year"; it was around 1996. I honestly don't know how I'd spend 25K in a year. The year I did make 25K I gave about a third of it away and put another third in the bank.

Right now I'm making about 300 a week.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-02-2013 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 10:55 AM ringo has responded

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