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Author Topic:   APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION of Pope Francis
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 31 of 62 (814086)
07-04-2017 9:30 AM


Faith raised the issue of Egyptian myths being borrowed by the Christian religion.
This is always a confusing issue. James Tabor is a competent scholar and he lightly covers the issue from time to time in his work.

This is a quote from his online article, Eat My Body, Drink My Blood - Did Jesus Ever Really Say This?

quote:

The closest parallels we have to this kind of idea are found in Greek magical materials from this period. For example, in one of the magical papyri we read of a spell in which one drinks a cup of wine has been ritually consecrated to represent the blood of the god Osiris, in order to participate in the spiritual power he had for his consort Isis.

There is evidence of the ideas in the sacrifice of Jesus in pre Christ times. See the article for more details of some aspects of the God sacrifice.

Faith said that the Virgin Birth is a pagan borrowing which was Satan laying some sort of groundwork to undermine Christian doctrines, right?

It is interesting to understand that Christians never existed until very recently in world history, so it seems that these old pagan religious beliefs were all the world ever had of what now makes up Christian doctrine.

Transport Faith back 2500 years into the past and pagans (especially in the Iranian Empire orbit ) would be the only ones that promote heaven and hell and judgment day ( while sharing monotheism with the Jewish community ).

I wasn't going to cover the eastern belief systems in this thread, but I think I will get my World Book Encyclopedia out just to see if I can find something useful. I think I will just quote 1 article. But

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 32 of 62 (814090)
07-04-2017 10:04 AM


World Book article, Bhagavad-Gita
quote:

Bhagavad-Gita, BUGH uh vuhd GEE tah, is one of the major sacred works of Hinduism. It is part of the Mahabharata, a great epic poem of India...
....
...a philosophical dialogue between the warrior Arjuna and his chariot driver, Krishna. It takes place before Arjuna goes to battle his cousins, the Kauravas. Krishna tells Arjuna to rise above the limits of the physical world. He urges Arjuna to realize that life and death are unreal, compared with the soul's eternal nature. After the battle, Krishna reveals that he is the god Vishnu. According to the Bhagavad-Gita, the best way to gain salvation is through love and devotion to Vishnu.

The human Krishna was an incarnation of God. With the heaven and hell of the Indian religions, there was the Iranian religion coloring the Indian myths as they made their way to Palestine.

I wonder what Faith would be saying if she was transferred back to the Middle East 2100 years ago (a time machine scenario ).

I guess she would say that "It is the name God and his Avatar is called that matters and makes all the difference ".

But our word "God " isn't what the first century Christian community ever used. What do today's Christians know about the name that the Iranian Christians used in the first Christian century? We know that the communities existed from the first few chapters of Acts.

Faith admits that most Christians weren't "real" Christians when she comments on the Roman Catholic Church in her posts.

The dirty little secret is that there were no Christians period for the first 4.6 billion years of Earth history (and even most of the time since writing was invented ).


Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:42 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
Phat
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Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 33 of 62 (814091)
07-04-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by LamarkNewAge
07-04-2017 10:04 AM


How about sticking to the topic?
I wasn't going to cover the eastern belief systems in this thread, but I think I will get my World Book Encyclopedia out just to see if I can find something useful. I think I will just quote 1 article.

Keep that Zoroastrian crap out of my thread!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-04-2017 10:04 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-04-2017 2:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 34 of 62 (814118)
07-04-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-04-2017 10:42 AM


I was sort of on the Catholic and Christian diversity thing.
The issue of pre Christ stuff in the Christian religion might not be a great big thing or not when it comes to the Catholic Church issue.

Faith and me both agree and disagree on the Catholic Church thing.

I think the early second century Roman church was essentially the Roman Catholic Church (a new European version of Christianity and not related to the first century Christian founders ), while she seems to consider it a continuation of the Apostles religion. (I think )

She tends to see much of early European Christianity as a direct successor to the Semitic founders. But there is a (yet to be defined by Faith ) hypothetical "perversion" - at some (unspecified) point in time - which resulted in the evolution of "The Church" into the Roman Catholic Church. The true church was gradually influenced by pre Christ pagan borrowing, according to Faith.

I don't know it I am doing her theory correctly.

But I was attempting to see the case made since Faith seems to see some significant dichotomy between the Roman Catholic Church and the later Protestant movement based on the pagan borrowing issues.

The Virgin Mary was mentioned but I actually don't know what exactly is the dichotomy between the Catholic Church view and (fundamentalist ) Protestants on this one. I see a quite big difference between the Jewish Christian folk of the first several centuries and the Roman Catholic Church. Faith raised that issue but my observations of the first century Christian doctrines might not have been exactly what she had in mind.

(And regardless, I don't know how the pre Christ incarnation views of pagan religions exactly made their way into the Christ/Christian movement and at what time )

(The Avatar religions to this day have both incarnation Avatars and spiritual possession type of Avatars just like Christianity has the Virgin Birth on the one hand and the Baptism based Adoptionism Christology )

The (re) incarnation stuff isn't Zoroastrianism BTW. Ditto for the Virgin Birth stuff.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : Adoptionism was badly misspelled


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 7:38 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 35 of 62 (814120)
07-04-2017 2:29 PM


The page 2 (posts 16-30) stuff and the "Apostolic" part of the thread title.
Faith seems to be responding to the Apostolic claims of the Catholic Church and that is why the thread has 2 different discussions going at the same time.

I can see that Phat doesn't like where the discussion is in the parallel discussion.

Posts 19-35 aren't what you wanted discussed, right Phat? Not a debate about the Apostolic succession of the Roman Catholic Church.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 36 of 62 (814139)
07-05-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by LamarkNewAge
07-04-2017 2:29 PM


Re: The page 2 (posts 16-30) stuff and the "Apostolic" part of the thread title.
I suppose anything to do with the RCC is ok...but I didn't really think that pre-christian era history was needed. Pope Francis should be our main focus, but since he represents the RCC I suppose it is all connected.

I have a different belief, personally, than what scholars usually dig for.

An event may predate Christianity, but in my belief nothing predates Christ.

Critics would say I was swayed by the author of John....which is true.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-04-2017 2:29 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 37 of 62 (814231)
07-05-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
07-05-2017 12:30 AM


Re: The page 2 (posts 16-30) stuff and the "Apostolic" part of the thread title.
Phat writes:

Critics would say I was swayed by the author of John....which is true.

Yet don't you look at John selectively and only through a modern interpretation colored by modern teachings?

Have you looked into how the author of John might have actually seen things which requires looking at those things that the author of John would have been familiar with?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 9765
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 38 of 62 (814244)
07-05-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-05-2017 6:45 AM


Spinoff. Please continue with any Pope Francis or RCC Stuff Here
jar writes:

Yet don't you look at John selectively and only through a modern interpretation colored by modern teachings?

Probably.

jar writes:

Have you looked into how the author of John might have actually seen things which requires looking at those things that the author of John would have been familiar with?

Start a topic on it...or...let me find an old one to continue this line of thought.
OK...found it. We had a lively discussion going!

Lets continue this discussion over there. Gospel Of John

Edited by Phat, : tidied things up a bit.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-05-2017 6:45 AM jar has not yet responded

Dredge
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Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 39 of 62 (814299)
07-06-2017 5:29 AM


I am a practising Catholic and I'm not the greatest fan of Pope Francis. One of his whacko notions of "justice" is to forcibly take money from those who have it and give it to those who don't - this is nothing but THEFT, socialist-style. He is no doubt well-meaning, but like most Marxists, he's an idealistic dreamer who worships an unattainable fantasy called equality. Worse still, he calls this unworkable, infantile nonsense, "Christianity", and wants all other Catholics to join him in his kindergarten sand-pit of dreams.

Deluded Lefties like Francis think nothing of oppressing certain classes of people in the name of an idiotic egalitarian utopia. The twentieth century is full of economic disasters created by socialists, but incorrigible dreamers like Francis still haven't got the message.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 46 by Stile, posted 07-06-2017 11:50 AM Dredge has responded
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Dredge
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Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 40 of 62 (814306)
07-06-2017 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AZPaul3
11-28-2013 3:02 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

To paraphrase:

We know God rails against contraception, hates condoms and we would forbid their use everywhere for all time. The world's distortion of this holy teaching by pointing to the slaughter of millions from AIDS as a direct consequence of this holy teaching is of no meaningful concern to us.

What nonsense. The AIDS epidemic would have occurred even if the Church approved of condoms.

The trail of blood and destruction left by AIDS can be traced back to it's source - male homosexuals. The disease was first called GRIDS, remember.

--------------------------------

It's a masterpiece of irony that the Church offiically condemns all forms of contraception, yet it unofficially supports the greatest contraceptive ever invented - feminism. Mainstream Catholicism's love of something as demonic and anti-life as feminsim is a measure of just how corrupt the Church has become. The good news for the Church is, "the gates of hell will not prevail against it". In other words, the current putirid mess won't last forever; it will be cleaned up eventually.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 41 of 62 (814307)
07-06-2017 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
07-02-2017 9:47 AM


Re: Francis The Despot?
Faith writes:

The Protestant Reformers all concluded that the papacy is the seat of the Antichrist.


I am a practising Catholic and I don't doubt that a schismatic version of the Catholic Church could well become the seat of Antichrist. A Loony Leftie like Pope Francis would be a good candidate to head such a false "Church".

And this Pope is a Jesuit, a member of a diabolical order founded by Ignatius Loyola which engineered assassinations all over Europe in their zeal to overthrow the Protestant Reformation. They also assassinated at least one Pope who thought their work diabolical.

The Jesuits are the most corrupt order in today's Catholic Church. They started out well, but now 99.9% of Jesuits are servants of the devil, plain amd simple.
Yes, Francis is a Jesuit - God help us!

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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 Message 19 by Faith, posted 07-02-2017 9:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 42 of 62 (814308)
07-06-2017 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
07-02-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Francis The Despot?
Mike the Wiz writes:

That's why I never accept ANYTHING an evolutionist atheist ever states by assertion without looking into it, because you can't trust them because of the mendacious way a lot of them present things.


Satan is the father of lies.

"The lie is sacred, and deception will be our principal weapon." - Vladimir Lenin.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 575
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 43 of 62 (814310)
07-06-2017 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by LamarkNewAge
07-04-2017 2:23 PM


Re: I was sort of on the Catholic and Christian diversity thing.
LamarkNewAge writes:

I see a quite big difference between the Jewish Christian folk of the first several centuries and the Roman Catholic Church.


Not surprising really. The first Church was Jewish and was influenced by ancient and deeply ingrained Jewish laws, some of which these early Christian Jews would have found difficult to abandon.

Furthermore, consider the following verses:
"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now ...
...When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come" - John 16:12-13.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" - Matthew 16:18-19.

These passages suggest a progressive revelation, so it should come as no surprise that the modern Catholic Church has added much to what the nascent Church taught and practised. (Is this theological evolution evidence that evolution is fact and that a racoon turned into a whale? I don't think so.)

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-04-2017 2:23 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 44 of 62 (814319)
07-06-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dredge
07-06-2017 7:38 AM


Re: I was sort of on the Catholic and Christian diversity thing.
Evolution is gonna get into this thread I see. The parallel to what you just said might be whether Genesis 1:1 to 2:4a can be describing progressive creation. Then ask if theistic evolution is possibly being described.

Genesis 2:4a uses the word Toledoth which is based on the word yalad which means he gave birth. The word toledoth is a noun that is a record of birthings. Generation is the translation.

I read a book by a creationist that said that the Virgin Birth was a counter to naturalistic evolution and the naturalistic process of human generations. The word generation was specifically used. It was ironic considering the Genesis 2:4 translation using "generations" .

The book was Many Infallible Proofs by Morris.

He said that the process of birth generations was a type of naturalism that the Virgin Birth of Jesus was a response to.

So perhaps Genesis 1 is compatible with naturalist concepts? Or maybe just progressive creation?

Toledoth is plural word btw. GenerationS

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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ringo
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Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 45 of 62 (814320)
07-06-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dredge
07-06-2017 5:29 AM


Dredge writes:

One of his whacko notions of "justice" is to forcibly take money from those who have it and give it to those who don't - this is nothing but THEFT, socialist-style.


Jesus-style.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 5:29 AM Dredge has not yet responded

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