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Author Topic:   Six possible things for creationists to disbelieve before breakfast
herebedragons
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Posts: 1341
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 16 of 35 (713147)
12-10-2013 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Coyote
12-04-2013 10:25 PM


Hi Coyote ...

I think this post over at EFF says it all about creationist responses

quote:
Seems like they found DNA from a femur that is 400,000 years old.

I like one of the quotes in the article from Juan Luis Arsuaga. He says, and I quote,

Quote: "Now we have to rethink the whole story"

Ah yes, let's see how we can make it all fit so it makes sense!


... accusations of ad-hoc reasoning. Because we don't know the whole story perfectly the first time, it must all be wrong.

However, it does seem a bit confusing how they dated these fossils. It appears they used sequence divergence to determine the age of these fossils. Is that right? Do they have corroborating data that supports the 400,000 kya date? (I did not read the original paper just the news article)

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
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Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 17 of 35 (713155)
12-10-2013 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by herebedragons
12-10-2013 9:21 AM


This site has been given a pretty old date from long before the mtDNA was sequenced. The presence of the particular fossils alone suggests an older date.

I'm not sure of the dating methods used as the articles don't say much, but apparently the site has been worked since 1983 and the mtDNA was just sequenced recently.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ProtoTypical, posted 03-11-2014 7:43 AM Coyote has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 35 (713225)
12-10-2013 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Pressie
12-08-2013 11:35 PM


Re: YEC response
I the report published the journalist made it clear that dating was done by DNA and geological methods.

I see your point. You are correct.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1744
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 19 of 35 (721672)
03-11-2014 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
12-10-2013 10:25 AM


Neanderthal extinction
A bit off the topic but...

A fairly popular hypothesis regarding the extinction of the Neanderthals is that they lost the battle for resources with modern humans. I have read that there were not more than about 3500 breeding Neanderthal women and so the population was always small. Do we know about how many modern humans they would have been competing with? It seems to me that the populations of both groups was too small to indicate that there would be much competition for resources over such a large area as Europe and Asia.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
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Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 20 of 35 (721686)
03-11-2014 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ProtoTypical
03-11-2014 7:43 AM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
The populations do seem to have been small.

But I think we still have a lot to learn about Neanderthal. The DNA sequencing that they're now doing is telling us a lot, and there will be more to come!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ProtoTypical, posted 03-11-2014 7:43 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1341
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 21 of 35 (721689)
03-11-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ProtoTypical
03-11-2014 7:43 AM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
I suspect that climate change had something to do with it, as they went extinct just prior to the last glacial maximum. They were probably not well adapted to changing food sources that were a result of climate change, while H. sapiens were more adapted and so were able to out-compete in that way.

I don't really have evidence that was the case, it is simply my suspicion.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ProtoTypical, posted 03-12-2014 12:48 PM herebedragons has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1744
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 22 of 35 (721827)
03-12-2014 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by herebedragons
03-11-2014 11:35 AM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
I suspect that climate change had something to do with it,

Seems way more plausible to me. Still, how long did it take for the glaciers to advance? We are talking at least decades right and did they even reach Spain? You would think that they could have migrated out of the way.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by herebedragons, posted 03-13-2014 12:23 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 23 of 35 (721832)
03-12-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ProtoTypical
03-12-2014 12:48 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
They reached Spain, Portugal, and Italy.

But here is an interesting one for you:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...a-spain-denisovan-cave


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ProtoTypical, posted 03-12-2014 12:48 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1744
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 24 of 35 (721849)
03-12-2014 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
03-12-2014 1:07 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
Thanks that was interesting. Obviously there is plenty more to figure out but it is astounding to me how much we can learn from a few old bones.

I have this image of one single offspring carrying the critical genetic material that led to modern humans. Our entire existence resting on one single essential mutation that allowed us to prosper. Such an incredibly thin beginning.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 25 of 35 (721851)
03-12-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
03-12-2014 1:07 PM


Re: Neanderthal ancestor?
They reached Spain, Portugal, and Italy.

But here is an interesting one for you:

quote:
The bones of the Sima people share the features of Neanderthals, notably their thick-browed skulls, as well as the features of a much older group of human ancestors called Homo heidelbergensis, which lived about 600,000 years ago.

Is it possible that the "sima hominin" is an intermediate between heidelbergensis and Neanders and Denesovians?


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Coyote
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Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 26 of 35 (721860)
03-12-2014 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
03-12-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Neanderthal ancestor?
Here is another interesting read:

http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.com/...tree-reflects.html


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 03-12-2014 3:21 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1341
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 27 of 35 (721919)
03-13-2014 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ProtoTypical
03-12-2014 12:48 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
Still, how long did it take for the glaciers to advance? We are talking at least decades right and did they even reach Spain? You would think that they could have migrated out of the way.

You're asking if the glaciers made it all the way to Spain, right? No, I don't think so. Northern Europe, I'm not exactly sure of the extent. The timing is approximately right, though. The Last Glacial Period was from about 110,000 ya to 12,000 ya. with peak coverage at about 22,000 ya. The Neanderthals are thought to be extinct (or absorbed into the human population) somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 ya. Denisovians disappear around the same time.

But I am not suggesting the glaciers ran over them, so it's not a matter of migrating out of the way. At the Last Glacial Maximum it is estimated that global temperature was 3oC lower than normal. Just considering that today we are experiencing global climate change of 1oC and the significant shifts in vegetation and animal populations that are occurring, that period would have experienced 3 times the effect.

So, my suspicion is that their food sources "migrated" while they did not. H. sapiens were then better at exploiting the changing environment and so were able to survive while the other hominid species were not.

There is also the possibility that the Neanderthals and Denisovians were simply bred out of existence by interbreeding with modern humans. But I would still see this as a byproduct of climate change. Why would there be significant population movement and intermingling except as a reaction to shortages of food. Additionally, I suspect H. sapiens were more aggressive and dominating than the other groups - just based on what I know about modern humans

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ProtoTypical, posted 03-12-2014 12:48 PM ProtoTypical has responded

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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1744
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 28 of 35 (722059)
03-14-2014 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by herebedragons
03-13-2014 12:23 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
But I am not suggesting the glaciers ran over them, so it's not a matter of migrating out of the way.

I meant in a sort of 'so to speak' way. Being hunter gatherers I would think that they were adept at following the food. If the food supply is moving over the course of decades I would think that they would have simply followed along. As the glaciers advanced both the food and the people would have been concentrated I guess. Still a pretty big area.

Is it odd that there should only be a population of about 10k of them if they were around for 370k yrs? Maybe they just weren't all that good at surviving.


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5929
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 29 of 35 (722062)
03-14-2014 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ProtoTypical
03-14-2014 8:43 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
I think we still have a lot to learn about those guys.

And now that they are getting DNA from the bones, I think that'll be a big help.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ProtoTypical, posted 03-14-2014 8:43 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Biblewarrior, posted 08-26-2015 5:40 AM Coyote has responded

  
Biblewarrior
Junior Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 08-26-2015


Message 30 of 35 (767105)
08-26-2015 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Coyote
03-14-2014 9:37 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
Why are the ages assumed?
How did they come to these ages?
This message is a reply to:
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