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Author Topic:   Chalk takes millions of years to form
Faith
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Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 16 of 57 (713280)
12-11-2013 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
12-11-2013 1:44 PM


I can't get that page to come up for some reason. Found it at Google and still can't get it to open. Another reference on the subject refers to creationist Snelling saying that conditions of the Flood would have caused the coccoliths to "bloom," which is an explanation I've run across before, but what those conditions were wasn't part of that article.

Perhaps I'm just impatient but my computer is very slow these days and I'm back here to ask you if it's easy enough to put the idea into words yourself. Or maybe give me another link I can actually open. Thanks.

But meanwhile I can go on speculating. Creatures could be expected to proliferate under ideal conditions so I'd speculate that perhaps those conditions were ideal for coccoliths in the pre-Flood era, when creationists usually suppose a much more fecund world in general anyway. One thing that is often hypothesized is shallower warmer ocean water. Would coccoliths like that? Maybe also the conditions during the Flood were also advantageous as Snelling proposes but I don't have a guess as to what he thinks those conditions are supposed to have been.

As for the problem with transporting existing coccoliths that you expressed, because they would have been hardened into rock as they are in the cliffs, I keep seeing them described as "calcareous ooze" which doesn't sound like rock.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2013 1:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2013 4:40 PM Faith has responded
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-11-2013 5:04 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
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Posts: 4650
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 17 of 57 (713285)
12-11-2013 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
12-11-2013 3:07 PM


Faith writes:


Perhaps I'm just impatient but my computer is very slow these days and I'm back here to ask you if it's easy enough to put the idea into words yourself. Or maybe give me another link I can actually open. Thanks.

It's not opening for me either atm, it looks like their server isn't responding. it's too long and fanciful for me to reproduce it, we'll just have to wait.

As for the problem with transporting existing coccoliths that you expressed, because they would have been hardened into rock as they are in the cliffs, I keep seeing them described as "calcareous ooze" which doesn't sound like rock.

You've seen the picture of the cliffs, does it look like ooze to you? Clue, my house is built on it. Or are you saying that the ooze only hardened in the 4,000 years after the flood?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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New Cat's Eye
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From: near St. Louis
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(1)
Message 18 of 57 (713287)
12-11-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
12-11-2013 4:40 PM


does it look like ooze to you?

quote:
In case of marine sediments, ooze does not refer to a sediment's consistency, but to its composition

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Dr Adequate
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(1)
Message 19 of 57 (713288)
12-11-2013 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
12-11-2013 3:07 PM


Another reference on the subject refers to creationist Snelling saying that conditions of the Flood would have caused the coccoliths to "bloom," which is an explanation I've run across before, but what those conditions were wasn't part of that article.

Coccoliths bloom in real life, it doesn't produce the amount of sediment required. Though it is pretty.

Would coccoliths like that?

Well the problem, as I've explained, is that they need sunlight. This places an upper limit on the number of coccolithophores you can have at one time, because once the surface is covered with coccolithophores, you can't have any more coccolithophores under that, because they'd be in the shadow of the coccolithophores on top. So the "ideal conditions" for coccolithophores is not having too many coccolithophores.

As for the problem with transporting existing coccoliths that you expressed, because they would have been hardened into rock as they are in the cliffs, I keep seeing them described as "calcareous ooze" which doesn't sound like rock.

They start off as calcareous ooze, which lithifies by compaction and recrystallization.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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 Message 16 by Faith, posted 12-11-2013 3:07 PM Faith has responded

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nwr
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Posts: 5524
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 20 of 57 (713290)
12-11-2013 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
12-11-2013 11:52 AM


Re: Chalkland Islands
And anyway, pretty much all schools now use whiteboards with marker pens.

I have the good fortune to be teaching in what I call a "smart classroom". It has real blackboards, instead of those awful whiteboards.

Pity really, I suspect having a teacher throw a marker pen at you will cause more damage than chalk.

I recall teachers that threw the blackboard erasers (we called them "dusters").

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Faith
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Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 57 (713292)
12-11-2013 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
12-11-2013 4:40 PM


No, I'm not suggesting that chalk of the hardness of the cliffs could have been transported. I'm considering that perhaps where they collect at the bottom of the ocean that they are in that condition of "ooze" and might be transportable. Can you answer THAT thought?

Never mind, I think Dr. A did and it suggests that yes, they may have been in a transportable condition at the time of the Flood or some great number might have been.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 57 (713293)
12-11-2013 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate
12-11-2013 5:04 PM


The amount of sunlight available should depend on the size of the area they cover. What area of sea floor would they need to cover to produce an amount that could build the chalk cliffs or all the chalk formations on earth?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 1465
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 23 of 57 (713296)
12-11-2013 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
12-11-2013 6:02 PM


What area of sea floor would they need to cover to produce an amount that could build the chalk cliffs

The point is, they would be dead on the sea floor. They have to be on the surface layers of the sea where there is enough light for photosynthesis while they are alive, during a bloom.

When they die they slowly sink to the bottom and over time build up into thicker and thicker layers that are solidifying at the bottom.

I'm considering that perhaps where they collect at the bottom of the ocean that they are in that condition of "ooze" and might be transportable.

It probably would be transportable if there were currents there at the bottom of the ocean.

How would the ocean level getting deeper because of "the flood" create currents, at the bottom of the ocean, that would move the primordial ooze some place else and solidify it once it got there?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


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 Message 22 by Faith, posted 12-11-2013 6:02 PM Faith has responded

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 24 of 57 (713301)
12-11-2013 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
12-11-2013 6:02 PM


The amount of sunlight available should depend on the size of the area they cover. What area of sea floor would they need to cover to produce an amount that could build the chalk cliffs or all the chalk formations on earth?

Lots. Have a look at this map for starters.

The green bits are calcareous ooze. Let's call that about 10% of the sea floor. A quick look round the Internet shows that these deposits vary in thickness from tens to hundreds of meters. Let's call it an average of 25 meters, which is extremely conservative. If all that was spread out on the ocean floor, then, that would be a thickness of 2.5 meters. Now based on sediment traps, the rate of deposition is between 1 and 5 centimeters per thousand years. Call it 5 everywhere (again, favoring you rather than me). So being generous all round, that would be 50,000 year's worth of sediment if the whole of the ocean surface was dedicated to the production of coccolithophores and foraminiferans, which it isn't. That's before we get onto the actual rocks, and before we consider whether even a magic flood could sweep up the ooze into neat zones which just happen to correlate perfectly with the places that the calcareous-ooze-forming organisms happen to live in at present.


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Faith
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Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 57 (713302)
12-11-2013 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tanypteryx
12-11-2013 6:54 PM


Good point, the effect of sunlight isn't an issue after they've died and fallen to the sea floor. The depth of that accumulation isn't a problem then, and the more the better.
\
So the question really is how much of the water where the sunlight penetrates would they need to occupy without putting each other in the shade, in order to produce enough to build the cliffs and other formations? And another question occurs whether they move around enough so that a great depth of them could receive sunlight in their turn.

As for currents at the bottom of the ocean during the Flood, the event is described as beginning with the release of the "fountains of the deep," which is not exactly clearly understood but it suggests some activity deep in the ocean that could have created currents to bring deeply lying things to the surface.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18482
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(5)
Message 26 of 57 (713306)
12-11-2013 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
12-11-2013 12:29 PM


evolution in chalk bed
A Floodist like me would hypothesize that the cliffs were like any of the thick strata anywhere on the earth, the result of the transportation by water of already-formed already-existent particles to their current location, and that before the Flood conditions were such that it didn't take so long for them to accumulate anyway. Any reason why this isn't possible?

I'll add one that hasn't been mentioned yet: they are layered in their deposits in the Dover cliffs, they can be distinguished by their forms - as can diatoms and foraminifera - and the ones at the bottom are different from the ones in the middle and both are different from the ones at the top, and in between they go through many evolutionary processes that can be observed and documented.

To have them dumped as you propose would not work because the layers would be jumbled not sorted, and would not show the pattern of development from bottom to top.

This is no different from over 65,000,000 years of foraminifera deposits on the sea floor being layered in evolutionary strata that shows speciation and differentiation from bottom to top ... no different from the layers of marine deposits in mountains (like Mt Everest even) that show evolution from bottom to top instead of the jumbled mish-mash of creationist ignorance ... no different from the rest of the world ...

So no, they can't be sucked up and piled from some world-wide distributions of dead deposits of purported pre-flood fantasy stockpiles.

The world is OLD Faith, very OLD, get used to it. No different, really, than going around the sun ... open your eyes and join the real world.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 12-11-2013 12:29 PM Faith has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 57 (713307)
12-11-2013 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
12-11-2013 11:52 AM


Re: Chalkland Islands
Pity really, I suspect having a teacher throw a marker pen at you will cause more damage than chalk.

Happened in highschool. My shirt was ruined as I was wearing white. Had the projectile been chalk, the stain would have blended right in. Not so with blue marker.


Love your enemies!

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18482
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 28 of 57 (713310)
12-11-2013 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
12-11-2013 11:10 AM


chalk clifffs and glyphs
been there
done that
got the t-shirt
wore it
wore it out
used the rag to wash my car

fond memories

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 57 (713312)
12-11-2013 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
12-11-2013 9:36 PM


Re: evolution in chalk bed
Of course I do not accept that interpretation of the ordering of fossils as proving evolution up some fantasy time scale. There has to be a mechanical principle of sorting that explains it.

As for

The world is OLD Faith, very OLD, get used to it. No different, really, than going around the sun ... open your eyes and join the real world.

If you're going to lecture me like that I can lecture right back: The world is YOUNG, RAZD, very YOUNG, because the God who made even you said so. Consider it because eventually the fact is going to bite you in the butt and draw blood.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18482
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 30 of 57 (713317)
12-11-2013 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
12-11-2013 10:50 PM


Re: evolution in chalk bed
Of course I do not accept that interpretation of the ordering of fossils as proving evolution up some fantasy time scale. There has to be a mechanical principle of sorting that explains it.

There is ... it is called evolution. It's all around you.

You don't have one.

The world is YOUNG, RAZD, very YOUNG, because the God who made even you said so.

And for this god, it would appear that 4.6 billion years is young ...

Curiously, My god said "Look at the universe and see the wonders that I have wrought"

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 12-11-2013 10:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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