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Author Topic:   Mid-ocean Ridges and Age of Formation
Coyote
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Joined: 01-12-2008
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(1)
Message 16 of 45 (714258)
12-20-2013 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
12-20-2013 9:10 PM


Re: Sea mounts
I figured a distance of 3000 miles (roughly that between Europe and North America) that had to be covered in 4300 years ending at a speed of two to four inches per year. That is what gave me the 20 feet per day starting speed.

I know where you got your figures.

But the 4300 year figure is based on a myth, not real evidence. You may believe it but that doesn't make it real.

And you have an absolutely closed mind whenever evidence which shows you are wrong is presented. You just can't -- won't -- see it.

That is the exact opposite of science, which has to follow the evidence no matter where it leads.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 12-20-2013 9:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 23973
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 17 of 45 (714263)
12-20-2013 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
12-20-2013 9:34 PM


Re: Sea mounts
You have interpretations and speculations, Coyote. The actual evidence supports creationism quite a bit better than the old earth and evolution.
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Pollux
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Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 18 of 45 (714264)
12-20-2013 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
12-20-2013 9:10 PM


Re: Sea mounts
Faith, you have calculated what would be an average speed right up to the present. Movement of one part of the plate by several feet causes massive earthquakes like the recent-tsunami producing one. Your scenario requires these to happen world-wide on a daily basis throughout recorded history, which does not seem to have happened. That is why YEC requires a huge rate of movement early, settling down before history started. Remember this also requires the sea mounts to be built in a day or two as the plates whizz over the hot spots requiring vulcanism that would make Krakatoa seem a firecracker, and doing something about those radioactive decay rates. Somewhere then you have to fit in the ice age, remembering what Isaid above.
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Pollux
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Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 19 of 45 (714266)
12-20-2013 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
12-20-2013 9:48 PM


Re: Sea mounts
The actual evidence strongly suggests that plate speed, rate of vulcanism, and radioactive decay rates have not substantially changed in millions of years. What evidence shows there was ever even feet per day of plate movement?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-20-2013 9:48 PM Faith has responded

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Pollux
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Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 20 of 45 (714278)
12-21-2013 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
12-20-2013 9:48 PM


Re: Sea mounts
As a further thought, Faith, what evidence makes you think you need to have a speeded-up plate tectonics in your scenario?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-20-2013 9:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 12-21-2013 3:26 AM Pollux has responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 23973
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 21 of 45 (714279)
12-21-2013 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Pollux
12-20-2013 9:56 PM


Re: Sea mounts
Faith, you have calculated what would be an average speed right up to the present.

But I didn't mean that average of 11 feet per day was the speed that was held, it was just a number to put in the middle, and I figured that speed actually occurred around 100 BC. The movement started at 20 feet per day and slowed down day by day to the current 2 to 4 inches a year. The Atlantic was widening all that time.

nt of one part of the plate by several feet causes massive earthquakes like the recent-tsunami producing one. Your scenario requires these to happen world-wide on a daily basis throughout recorded history,

Well, remember we're talking something like 2350 BC, we're talking eight living human beings after the Flood, as well as a small number of animals, and when the Flood receded they were all somewhere in the Middle East, not very near the major tectonic upheavals, and nowhere near the vulcanism at the bottom of the Atlantic. Tsunamis wouldn't reach that far. They probably did feel the earthquakes but not at close range. So at first all that occurred where there was nobody around to experience any of it.

which does not seem to have happened.

How would you know if it happened or not if there was nobody around to experience it?

That is why YEC requires a huge rate of movement early, settling down before history started.

"Requires?" Simply seems to fit the biblical scenario. It's all of a piece.

Remember this also requires the sea mounts to be built in a day or two as the plates whizz over the hot spots requiring vulcanism that would make Krakatoa seem a firecracker, and doing something about those radioactive decay rates. Somewhere then you have to fit in the ice age, remembering what Isaid above.

I don't see a problem with any of that in the first few centuries after the Flood since it was during that time that all this activity got going, when there wouldn't have been anybody to be disturbed by it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 22 of 45 (714280)
12-21-2013 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Pollux
12-20-2013 10:00 PM


Re: Sea mounts
The point of the numbers I gave you was to answer your accusation that the YEC scenario would require "miles a day" of continental drift and it does not. That's the reason I gave the number. You could at least acknowledge that instead of changing the subject. It's a calculation based on known distance and biblically determined age.

Also, you don't seem to appreciate the fact that all those millions of years are mostly based on suppositions built on suppositions built on assumptions.


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Faith
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Posts: 23973
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 23 of 45 (714281)
12-21-2013 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Pollux
12-21-2013 2:46 AM


Re: Sea mounts
As a further thought, Faith, what evidence makes you think you need to have a speeded-up plate tectonics in your scenario?

God's revelation of the timing of the Flood, plus a rough estimate of the current distance across the Atlantic, plus the current rate of continental drift as calculated by Jerry Coyne.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 24 of 45 (714285)
12-21-2013 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
12-21-2013 3:26 AM


Re: Sea mounts
The Bible says nothing about plate tectonics after the Flood. A wind dried up the Flood waters, and the abatement lasted several months. But before we discuss the problems of rapid tectonics further, why do you want to put it in your scenario? Is there some evidence that you accept from the real world that shows you need any tectonics in a Flood model?
Remember the standard picture of plate tectonics has movement all over the Earth, not just the separation of the Atlantic. India had quite a journey before it slammed into Asia; the Middle East is a very tectonically active place today; and Africa is ripping apart.
This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 23973
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 45 (714286)
12-21-2013 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Pollux
12-21-2013 4:07 AM


Re: Sea mounts
I've watched all the animations, I know the basics about tectonics.

No, the Bible doesn't say anything about tectonics, but it fits beautifully with the Flood scenario as seen in the strata, as clearly some kind of force or forces distorted the strata in various ways after they were all laid down. The Bible doesn't say anything about the strata either, but it's beautiful evidence for the Flood. Sure we use the observations of science, of course. God gave the West science in the first place and true science honors God. It's the INTERPRETATIONS of the sciences that claim to understand the past that are the problem, not the actual evidence.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Pollux
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Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 26 of 45 (714287)
12-21-2013 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
12-21-2013 4:11 AM


Re: Sea mounts
If you mean 100 BC for 11 feet per day and it is not a misprint, this is still a 10,000 fold increase in rate of movement with its attendant quakes AND do not forget the vulcanism. Krakatoa cooled the earth for months due to its dust. You need maybe thousands of Krakatoas a year for centuries. The Romans probably would have noticed. To get the degree of movement of plates as recorded by palaeomagnetism you need much more than 20 feet per day for many years then slow it to a rate comparable to today's. It would take more than 1000 years at 20 feet per day to open the Atlantic. You have to quickly build the sea mounts such as in the Hawaiian-Emperor chain, erode them, sink them, grow thick coral reefs on some them as they sink, and alter radiometric decay rates in line with the change of rate of movements so that when the evil scientists come along in the 20th century they will find the age of the sea mounts is pretty well just what you would expect for the CURRENT rate of movement. i.e. if you plot age against distance from the hot spot you get a straight line. And you have to fit an Ice Age in somewhere, with the inconvenient evidence that there was major ice on S. Africa, S. America, and Australia BEFORE they separated.
Take the advice Fagin gave himself.
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RAZD
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Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


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Message 27 of 45 (714311)
12-21-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Pollux
12-21-2013 5:26 AM


Getting back to the Mid-Ocean Ridges
If you mean 100 BC for 11 feet per day and it is not a misprint, this is still a 10,000 fold increase in rate of movement with its attendant quakes AND do not forget the vulcanism. Krakatoa cooled the earth for months due to its dust. You need maybe thousands of Krakatoas a year for centuries. The Romans probably would have noticed. ...

And all of this fantasy fast movement would leave the Mid-Ocean Ridge gap open more, the rock in the ridges would still be cooling and all the heat that would have been dispersed over hundreds of years would be concentrated into a few days. The water would boil over the ridges, filling the air with steam in addition to all that dust, and the sun would not be visible for many many years -- something even ol Noah would notice.

There would be many years of climate change that just is not recorded ...

To say nothing about all those magnetic reversals flipping the magnetic field all over the place and affecting it's ability to protect the earth from radiation from the sun ... also not recorded ...

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : ...


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This message is a reply to:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 28 of 45 (714331)
12-21-2013 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
12-21-2013 11:18 AM


Re: Getting back to the Mid-Ocean Ridges
And while all the rapid plate movement was going on the trees were quietly producing annual rings and Lake Suigetsu was producing tens of thousands of layers.
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 1324
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.9


(1)
Message 29 of 45 (714337)
12-21-2013 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Pollux
12-21-2013 3:22 PM


Re: Getting back to the Mid-Ocean Ridges
And while all the rapid plate movement was going on the trees were quietly producing annual rings and Lake Suigetsu was producing tens of thousands of layers.

Man you walked right into that one.

The wind caused by the rapid plate movement caused the trees have more growth rings and caused ripples on Lake Suigetsu that produced extra varves. And we all know that wind causes radioactive decay to speed up, too.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


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Pollux
Member
Posts: 184
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 30 of 45 (714486)
12-23-2013 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
12-21-2013 4:11 AM


Re: Sea mounts: Question for Faith
Faith, in the GC thread you said it is not the data but the interpretation that OE put on it that is the problem.
Wikipedia has an article "list of volcanoes in the Hawaiian-Emperor seamount chain" showing how they are older as they get further away from Hawaii. Can you please interpret it for me?
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