Bible and Plagiarism

Faith is most commonly defined as unfounded belief in something. While it is usually associated with religion, it could be something like "I have faith that fairies exist" (ignoring for the second any religion that may have fairies in it's belief system).

Sure, I could agree with that. Faith does not require evidence to facilitate belief.The main difference between the Bible and the idea that fairies exist is what I mentioned previously. The Bible makes certain claims and statements, that in all honestly, are outrageous. A historical character named Jesus claims TO BE the YHWH of the Jewish Torah? He not only claims to be that same GOD, but outlines a narrative that goes beyond this life? He prophesies his own death and "resurrection" before it happens? Merely believe it's true and live forever? Crazy stuff.What it really comes down to is what will you choose to put your trust in? What do you have that gives you hope? For me, my personal experience has corroborated the claims made in that book. Maybe that's not your experience, and that's okay dude. So. What will you put your trust in? Fairies, or someone who offers more than anything you could ever imagine? But fairies do that too right? haha.- RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

I fail to see what personal experience (in the sense it is commonly referred to, of course) would corroborate the claims of the Bible. Could you please elaborate? I try not to put too much unfounded trust in anything. However, as a human male, I am kinda susceptible to pretty girls telling me to do things XD. Just joking around...sort of. I think the big difference is that I have faith in someone's abilities, but not faith in THEM. Faith can mean trust or unfounded belief.

Not quite. That's not quite true.People wrote stories where they created a character called Jesus and assert that Jesus was a historical person.In the stories (all written long after the actual character would have been dead if he did exist) some of the writers claim that he predicts his own death and resurrection.We can look at the stories and see whether they resemble actual history or mythology. Agood example is looking at the "Great Commission". It is common to most of the Gospels but what we find there is the typical evolution of a story that we find in fables and mythos.

Sure dude! Sorry about that. "personal experience" is a vague term religious people use all the time but never really explain what it means. Here's an example.When I was 18, I went to a private University. Right before the second semester of my Freshman year began, my dad was fired, effectively cutting off my financial stability and resulted in incurring a debt of some $7,000 or so. My problem arose when I tried to transfer Universities; they would not transfer my transcript until that balance was paid. I did not have $7,000. Nobody in my family had it (my parents live a moderately lower-middle class lifestyle). It was just not going to happen. All my life, I was taught that there is a personal God who cares about my life, even the financial details. Verses like Phil. 4:19 came to mind, which states that God will supply all our needs. There are others as well. So I called God out on it, praying that he would supply for me. nothing happened. Weeks passed. I decided, on the council of a friend, to just call the University and ask them to straight-up forgive my debt. So I did, and, incredibly, they decided to not require me to pay the debt that had incurred since I left the university (around $600), so the balance was reduced to around $6,400. There's God . But it wasn't over. I entered the other University. They let me in on the condition that I would have to supply my transcript within a few months. I kept praying. kept calling God out on the fact that in His supposed "Word" he promises to provide, if we merely test him! (Malachi 3:10). Kept praying. It came straight to the day where I needed the money or they wouldn't let me stay at University. It seemed like God actually did not care, and does not answer prayer. But I have good friends, who encouraged me to keep praying. So I did. One day word came from my church that there was a hidden fund that only 2 PEOPLE in the church had known about, but never remembered (they are 65+) that held a balance of $10,000, and they would donate whatever I needed to continue my education. In order to understand why thats a big deal you need to know that my church at the time was made up of about 13 retired, poor, older women (Most 65+, a few 75+). That's what I mean when I say "personal experience." That's merely one story, I could go on for hours haha. Stuff like that has become normal. Kind of a long-winded guy . But does that make sense? In the Bible God makes claims. He says to just test him (Mal. 3:10) and He will reveal himself. It's hard sometimes, honestly, because faith isn't easy. It sucks sometimes. But God has proven himself, over and over again for me. Haha dude I can agree with that. The ladies are enticing. But sure, faith can mean trust or unfounded belief. But both work for this illustration. This is, at the beginning, and unfounded belief. But as time goes on, in my subjective experience, God has proven himself, changing this unfounded belief into a confirmed belief, over and over and over again. Sure. Most of that's fair. I stated that Jesus is a historical character, assuming it was true, begging my own question. I apologize. But that is not essential to my argument my friend.The writers of the New Testament wrote about the character Jesus (after his death) in the same way that your friends would write about you after your death. Do they need sources? Peer reviews? confirmation? Not really, they're just writing about what you did so we can know who you were what you were about. How would anyone prove you existed in a couple thousand years when all we have are some preserved pieces of a Word document talking about the stuff you did, and how you impacted people? We couldn't, and that's the point,.Regardless of whether or not Jesus is proven to be a historical character actually doesn't matter, because the claims he makes and questions he asks do not require that you have proof. What it really comes down to is the Bible makes claims, asking the reader to trust its validity based on personal experience. You can go any which way with intellectualism and evidence, but Christ does not ask you to check his sources before belief, merely believe. He lives to ask the question: What will you do with me and my claims?Nice to see you, jar - RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Well, yes, anything written about me, particularly 30 or more years after my death would definitely need not just peer review but also some form of additional external evidence.The big issue I have is that the what you have listed as important claims are pretty much irrelevant and unimportant when you look at what Jesus (if Jesus existed) did; I find it is a perversion and cheapening way of marketing Christianity. Of course they are an easy sell.Throw the claims away. Who cares if Jesus is God? Who cares if Jesus was resurrected? Who cares if Jesus ascended?Are they important to Jesus message?Go back to the topic. Claims like those have been around for thousands and thousands of years before there was a Bible. Claims like that were a dime a dozen and contrary to what Paul was supposed to have said, not even very unusual or unique.Throw all those claims away, treat them as anathema.Instead ask if there is a valuable message to be found.Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

They would definitely need additional external confirmation. But that's my point, and, ironically, the hardest part of Jesus' message. He does not offer you additional evidence, he merely says "believe", and when he reveals himself in your life, activated by belief, that is what acts as additional evidence. Specific to you, impossible to prove, but evidence. Sure, Christianity has used those overused, orthodox-inspired ideas to sell itself. That's humanity. But this isn't about Christianity, this is about Jesus. What did he actually do? He taught the scriptures in the synagogue. He gathered a group of followers. He taught a higher moral standard than the religious people of the time lived out.(Matt 5-6) And he egotistically claimed that He was the only way to the kingdom. That anyone who heard his words merely needs to believe him, and they will live forever.Which is hard right? He doesn't say "considering the proof, and the additional evidence accompanying my words, you can trust me," he says "blessed are those who believe without seeing me" (John 20:29). Trusting somebody with nothing besides their word to lean on is hard. So is it a way of marketing Christianity? Or is it more of a journey, corroborated by the thousands of people whose lives have been changed. I fear you bring a pre-cultivated anathema to them, my friend. Not judging, just honest concern. Your questions do not appear to come from an objective, open-mindedness, but instead from an "unanswered questions" kind of mentality. Jesus claimed to be God. That is important, for a man to claim to be God is stupidity or insanity, if untrue. His followers claimed he resurrected. That is important because it is impossible, and because he promises the same to us; giving us hope beyond this short life. His followers also claimed he ascended. That is important because of what he claimed: he is going to prepare a place for us, one which we do not deserve, but he is giving to us simply because that is who he is. That is the important message to be found, and it's one to rejoice about! The topic is "Bible and Plagiarism." I believe this is very on topic, because the Bible ignores the fact that it could have been plagiarised. It simply speaks straight to our doubts, asking belief, promising confirmation. So the question remains: What will we do with this Jesus and his claims?- Raph

Well, you posted your beliefs.

I see your experience and understand where your belief came from, but the one thing I never get is how you even know which God it was. Allah, Yahweh, etc. And while that is a great story, there isn't really a direct correlation that I can see between praying and having debts paid off. It wouldn't be the first time that someone, out of kindness, let something "slip under the radar", if you will. For example, when my sister was applying to West Point Academy, she wrote down that she had asthma (when in truth she had minor breathing problems in middle school and didn't even carry an inhaler). Out of kindness, the doctor managed to go to great lengths to set up an appointment to finally test her asthma, and she passed. She is a sophmore and is doing great today. I guess my point is that, without a direct correlation between the prayer/faith and the intervention, as well as a way to show that it must've been divine (albeit that is kinda of difficult, so I guess it won't be neccesary), and some way to show which god it was, I don't understand. If you were a deist, I could see this story being enough to prove your faith (not any one God in particular), but I assume you are Christian. I guess everyone has different requirement for evidence (I don't mean that in any biting way at all)

That's fair. So, if I'm getting what you're saying, your conditions for understanding are:#1. A direct correlation between the prayer/faith and intervention
#2. A Way to show it must have been divine
#3. Some way to show what God it was. How do I know the God of the Christian Bible is the one answering my prayers?I do not sense any sort of biting intention my friend, so all good . Let me address each of your conditions:#1. This was kind of illustrated in my earlier story, but maybe it wasn't the best example. This one is an integral part of faith: How do I know that my prayer is being answered and it is not merely human kindness (in the earlier story) or coincidence. In order to do this, I have to tell another story haha. I am a Christian.I'm generally a poor person. Bills are frequent, and supporting yourself in college is quite the experience in money management. (There are non-financial examples, but I find that monetary ones are the easiest to understand.) So. A couple years ago there was a situation in which I didn't have enough money to pay my phone bill. It was $100. Way expensive, I know, At&t doesn't really like me . At this time, my experience with God was that he answers prayers, so again, I called God out. He said "do not be anxious about your life, what you eat, drink, wear, etc" (Matt. 6:25). I would basically include "phone bill" in with those other necessities, so I assumed God cares even about my overpriced phone bill. It came literally down to the day, and At&t took the money from my account. I had $0 in my checking account. I was $-100, but still praying, expecting that God would do something. I lived in the University dormitory at the time, so I decided to check my mailbox. Turns out I had received a letter from my great-grandmother that very day, who lives in Canada. I open it, it contained a single american $100.00 bill, without a note. This great-grandmother NEVER sends me cash, let alone american cash, without a note. The mere fact that she sent me cash was a miracle, not to mention it was in US currency, and arrived on the exact day I needed it. Stuff like that may just be coincidence, but when Jesus says "don't worry about your everyday needs, I got your back" and a coincidence like that happens, it's a confirmation.#2. In the example above, the proof is in the situation. But it's more of a principle thing. Before exercising our faith, there is no way to guarantee that it will be divine, and when confirmation happens, there is also no blaring sign which says "THIS IS DIVINE." That's why it's faith. It does not require a way to prove it is divine, but confirmation in and of itself, is.#3. The basic principle, again, is I cannot empirically prove that it was the Christian God who answered my prayers, but his confirmations to my faith in real life aline with both his character (revealed in the Bible) and examples in the Bible. Perhaps if I knew the Quran well, and prayed to Allah and he answered consistently, aligning with the experiences of millions of other people corroborated by the character of Allah shown in the Quran, I would believe it was Allah. Therefore, if this God (not necessarily the "Christian God," per se, but the one spoken of in the Bible) exists, we must look at his other claims. That there are no other Gods. Kinda see how that makes sense?Regards!- Raph

That is an astounding story. But when you say that the actions are like the Biblical God, you forget the Allah (I use that term in the way we usually do) also supposedly cares.

quote:

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{[]Allah supports with His help whoever He wills. There is lesson in that for people of insight.} (Al ‘Imran 3: 13)

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So while I see your point, I'm still iffy on that part. Also, while I'm not trying to batter down the story or anything, did you ever try contacting your great grandmother about the money? I'm not really seeing this part. You say that if this god exists, but then say that you mean the one mentioned in the Bible, just not the Christian God. Do you mean in the way that the three Abrahamic religions worship the same god? Whose other claims? Allah also says that there were no other gods, and there are plenty of divine hindu experiences or native American religious experiences. I'm a bit hazy.Have a nice day!-PMSP.S. - Yes, I did just noticed that I have accidentally created the worst initials possible

Moro Islamic Liberation Front - Wikipedia

This is why people shouldn't use acronyms

College in my home townSt.Helens Institute of Technology.

You could always rebrand yourselfRAZD
Rebel American Zen DiestEnjoy