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Author Topic:   The smoldering of EVC
JonF
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Posts: 3998
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 121 of 168 (715450)
01-05-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
01-05-2014 1:55 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
The Bible still has to be interpreted by human beings.

Not all interpretations are equal. Some are compatible with all the known evidence, others (e.g. yours) are incompatible with even a fraction of the evidence.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 1:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
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Posts: 3998
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 122 of 168 (715451)
01-05-2014 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
01-05-2014 2:18 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
We all know you mean it. We also know that you are wrong, and exactly and objectively why you are wrong.

But you can't handle the truth. You are too dedicated to ignorance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 2:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
nwr
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Posts: 5544
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 123 of 168 (715452)
01-05-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by marc9000
01-05-2014 3:23 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
I think the best way to clarify why that is happening is because science is actually divided in two, there's actual science, and there's metaphysical science.

I disagree with that. However, it is a misunderstanding that seems to be common among creationists and ID proponents. So I'm glad that you have started a new topic. I hope it is promoted.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Faith
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Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 168 (715453)
01-05-2014 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by JonF
01-05-2014 8:59 AM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
I thought from the way you guys were talking that I must have used the term "witness" in some sense that included inanimate objects, which would have been a mistake although I could see I might have done it. But if this is what you meant it turns out I did not do that at all:


There are plenty of witnesses of all kinds to help the forensic investigator decipher the clues of a case. There are legal documents, case histories, and yes even scientific documents that may help in a particular case and are in the sense I'm using the word "witnesses.

OK, so now you are acknowledging the traces left by past events are "witnesses" and can be relied on. It's a start. Now try applying it.

What I listed are all HUMAN witnesses, documents written by human beings. I did not use the term in the sense you are saying I did, to refer to rocks as witnesses. I thought I must have made that error since you claim I did, but in fact I did not. Written documents that can be used in any way to establish the truth about a crime or ancient rocks, are the sort of witnesses I had in mind, all HUMAN witnesses.

Historical Geology studies things that exist in a time frame where there are no witnesses of any sort whatever.

By your definition, the rocks are witnesses.

This is completely false. I referred only to written documents as witnesses,. Rocks don't write documents.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by JonF, posted 01-05-2014 8:59 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2014 4:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 139 by JonF, posted 01-06-2014 10:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 125 of 168 (715454)
01-05-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
01-05-2014 4:32 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
This is completely false. I referred only to written documents as witnesses,. Rocks don't write documents.

Rocks bare witness to the ways they were formed, to the way they have been altered (bent, metamorphosed, lithified, crystallized, etc).

Rocks bare witness to the ways they have been deposited (sedimentary, volcanic ash, magma).

Some bare witness to their age (radiometric dating).

And yes I am using "bare" intentionally instead of bear because they lay naked the information contained in their composition and structure.

Of course you won't accept this ... because it violates your opinion.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 4:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 5:07 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 126 of 168 (715455)
01-05-2014 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by marc9000
01-05-2014 3:23 PM


Proposed Thread: Two types of science
... science is actually divided in two, there's actual science, and there's metaphysical science ...

Agreed, there's actual science and there is "creation science" ...

But let the process begin -- be careful of what you wish for ... there will be a lot of replies: would you like to propose some "rules of engagement" to minimize your load?

I for one would like to have a ban on mocking or derisive or insulting posts, because they detract from the rest of the debate -- go somewhere else if you feel a need for that type of expression.

It should be relatively easy to show the scientific process in any science field marc9000 wishes to discuss.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by marc9000, posted 01-05-2014 3:23 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by marc9000, posted 01-05-2014 7:26 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 168 (715456)
01-05-2014 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by RAZD
01-05-2014 4:49 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
Yes, RAZD, I was explaining what I meant by the "unwitnessed" past and what I meant refers to human witnesses, not to rocks though that kept getting falsely imputed to me. Rocks are the subject matter that needs the human witness, at least written information. Rocks don't write documents. The sense in which they are "witnesses" is not the sense I meant. I hope what I meant is now clear to you. When I say the "unwitnessed past" I mean the prehistoric past where you have no way of having your interpretation corrected. That is not the case with criminal forensics where you always have lots of possibilities through human witnesses both in person and in documents, to help you out. I do hope that what I mean by that constant concern about the danger of unstoppable false interpretation of the unwitnessed / prehistoric past, is clearer.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2014 4:49 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 128 of 168 (715460)
01-05-2014 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
01-05-2014 7:01 AM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
There are plenty of witnesses of all kinds to help the forensic investigator decipher the clues of a case. There are legal documents, case histories, and yes even scientific documents that may help in a particular case and are in the sense I'm using the word "witnesses."

If, in Faithspeak, scientific documents count as "witnesses", then in what sense is the prehistoric past unwitnessed? There are lots of scientific documents telling us about it ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 7:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 6:26 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 129 of 168 (715463)
01-05-2014 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Dr Adequate
01-05-2014 5:59 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
The documents are not FROM the time in question, or close enough to be authoritative, such as the Book of Genesis of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2014 5:59 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2014 8:38 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 136 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2014 8:56 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 140 by Coragyps, posted 01-06-2014 11:13 AM Faith has responded

    
ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 130 of 168 (715464)
01-05-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
01-05-2014 2:09 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
Well, a creationist can tell it's happening with Old Earth and ToE interpretations, in fact it's so obvious it makes me groan all the time to read any of it.

Alright but how can you tell when it is happening? How would I go about determining if it was happening?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 2:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 131 of 168 (715470)
01-05-2014 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by RAZD
01-05-2014 5:01 PM


Re: Proposed Thread: Two types of science
Agreed, there's actual science and there is "creation science" ...

Actual science and atheist science is more what I had in mind.

But let the process begin -- be careful of what you wish for ... there will be a lot of replies: would you like to propose some "rules of engagement" to minimize your load?

I don't care, I'll respond to whom and what I want, and I'll take all the time I need. I'll try not to be absent for more than a couple of days at a time. I can't forsee it going on too long. If there's a lot of anger and rudeness, I'll include my response to that in my closing summary - it will help make my points.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2014 5:01 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
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Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 132 of 168 (715479)
01-05-2014 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by marc9000
01-05-2014 7:26 PM


Re: Proposed Thread: Two types of science
Actual science and atheist science is more what I had in mi

Actual science being what doesn't disagree with your supernatural beliefs, while atheist science is that which shows your beliefs to be wrong?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 133 of 168 (715486)
01-05-2014 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
01-05-2014 5:07 PM


witnessed / Prehistoric Past
... I hope what I meant is now clear to you. ...

Yep. What you mean is that if you ignore everything that is known about rocks and what they can tell you about the past, and ignore all the evidence of similar processes today, and if you close your eyes and plug your ears and stuff cotton up your nose and shout loudly in all caps, you can tell yourself that there is no way to know about rocks and the past.

But you are only fooling yourself.

The only way to stop science is to invalidate it -- and that means playing on the level field without handicapping yourself by lack of knowledge.

btw Leonardo Da Vinci figured it out long ago:

quote:
Leonardo knew well the rocks and fossils (mostly Cenozoic mollusks) found in his native north Italy. No doubt he had ample opportunity to observe them during his service as an engineer and artist at the court of Lodovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, from 1482 to 1499: Vasari wrote that "Leonardo was frequently occupied in the preparation of plans to remove mountains or to pierce them with tunnels from plain to plain." He made many observations on mountains and rivers, and he grasped the principle that rocks can be formed by deposition of sediments by water, while at the same time the rivers erode rocks and carry their sediments to the sea, in a continuous grand cycle. He wrote: "The stratified stones of the mountains are all layers of clay, deposited one above the other by the various floods of the rivers. . . In every concavity at the summit of the mountains we shall always find the divisions of strata in the rocks." Leonardo appear to have grasped the law of superposition, which would later be articulated fully by the Danish scientist Nicolaus Steno in 1669: in any sequence of sedimentary rocks, the oldest rocks are those at the base. He also appears to have noticed that distinct layers of rocks and fossils could be traced over long distances, and that these layers were formed at different times: ". . . the shells in Lombardy are at four levels, and thus it is everywhere, having been made at various times." Nearly three hundred years later, the rediscovery and elaboration of these principles would make possible modern stratigraphy and geological mapping.

... As Leonardo himself wrote:

Since things are much more ancient than letters, it is no marvel if, in our day, no records exist of these seas having covered so many countries. . . But sufficient for us is the testimony of things created in the salt waters, and found again in high mountains far from the seas.

The facts, Faith, the facts show that there was no flood.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 5:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 134 of 168 (715487)
01-05-2014 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
01-05-2014 6:26 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
The documents are not FROM the time in question, or close enough to be authoritative ...

How close in time does a document have to be to be authoritative, and why? Do the facts have a "best before" date?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 6:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 135 of 168 (715490)
01-05-2014 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by marc9000
01-05-2014 7:26 PM


Re: Proposed Thread: Two types of science
I don't care, I'll respond to whom and what I want, and I'll take all the time I need....

Okay, just trying to help.

Actual science and atheist science is more what I had in mind

I'm not sure what you mean. I've never heard of the field of atheist science -- what do they study?

Your proposed topic doesn't mention this field of study -- perhaps you can add it when your revise it.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by marc9000, posted 01-05-2014 7:26 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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