Science, Religion, God – Let’s just be honest

This agrees with jars belief in personal responsibility. According to him, A&E were not burdened with original sin---rather they were given the gift of awareness of choice between good and evil.In that context, God is no longer necessary on a day to day basis.We already have the inner awareness of what to do and what not to do.I disagree with this only because...when under pressure...I have found that humans will look out for themselves before looking out for others. Hence we need the help of an authority over us.You would probably say that its all built in already...that through our conscience and wisdom we have all we need already. Am I close? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I don't think God exists.So, yeah... I don't think God's necessary on a day to day basis, or any basis. I don't think this is true... in the "ultimate/absolute" sense, anyway.
I think we have to make our best decisions with the information available to us.I don't think we have some sort of "inner awareness" that tells us what to do and not to do... not in any sense that's "correct" anyway.
I think we develop a sense of right/wrong as our experiences increase in life.
From there, I think we're able to use our intelligence to decide if we want to be a good person or a bad person.
From there, I think we have the ability to try our best to be a good person.
(As a quick summary, anyway.) You need better friends
It's not your fault.. the people around you isn't always something you get to choose. I agree that this would be nice. But what if it simply isn't possible... because God doesn't exist? Yes... close, but not quite correct. And the distinction is rather significant.I wouldn't say our conscience and wisdom is all we need.
I would say our conscience and wisdom is all we have.Therefore, we better try to make the best of it...

I'm not going to pretend that I know what purpose we will fulfill in an eternal existence in our re-created universe, but I take it on faith that there will be one. Maybe it's a bit like being in the womb. We develop in there and are born into a bigger more complete world where we find purpose. It is my belief that we are in something of an embryonic state and when we leave this life we are born into an even more complete world with brand new purposes that at this point we can't even imagine. It is belief or faith, but I still contend that buried deep in our consciousness is a sense that we truly are teleological beings. It is hardly a conclusive argument but I think it highly unlikely that inner sense would arise from solely naturalistic origins.In the end though, IMHO, it all comes back to the resurrection. Was Jesus resurrected in a new bodily form that had the hallmarks of His body pre-crucifixion but in other ways was quite different. If I were to conclude that the resurrection was not an historical event then I would be largely in agreement with you, although I would be an agnostic with theistic leanings.However, I strongly believe that the resurrection was historical. Yes, it is on faith, but at the same time I have read numerous articles and books and listened to many talks and debates on the issue that presented both sides of the discussion, on an historical basis In the end the debates have meant that I am more convinced than ever of the basis of the Christian faith which is the resurrection by God of the man Jesus.On the assumption that those beliefs are correct then it seems more than reasonable to accept the belief there is life after this life that is similar but different. As I say, it all hangs on what we believe happened to and through Jesus roughly 2000 years ago.

I suggest it is an open question as to whether there is a genetic component to our behaviour but I am completely unqualified to comment on it. I think however that we can agree that the nature and behaviour of the parents from early on in the womb and throughout one's life will have a huge influence on the moral foundation of any human.I was raised in a home where I was loved and respected. (As I get older I and talk to people I sometimes feel that in that regard I am part of a minority.) Others are raised in homes where there is abuse, where immorality is the norm and where there is only self love.If we are judged on what we do, or what we believe then how can there be any justice if I am to be judged on an equal footing with someone raised as I just outlined?I see it this way and I contend that it is Biblical. Paul writes this in 1 Cor 4:

quote:

---

3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

---

The point is that it is what is in our heart. The person who grew up in an abusive home and maybe spent a life in and out of prison may deep down in his heart hate what he is doing and actually yearn for a life that isn't self centred and self-destructive. I on the other hand growing up in a loving environment might very well do all the right things but underneath it remains all about me and I follow the rules in order to stay free and to be accepted in all the right circles.CS Lewis writes this.

quote:

---

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.

---

That is a quote from "The Great Divorce". I believe that Lewis got it right and from that I infer that the one raised in an abusive unloving environment that leads to a self-destructive lifestyle might very well have a will that will lead him to choose life with God whereas out of hubris and self importance that someone raised as I was may very well choose the opposite.If you go to an online concordance and type in the single word "heart" and go through the Pauline epistles in particular, but the rest of the NT as well, it is clear that the verse I just used is not taken out of context but is consistent with the entire NT message. But I still claim that it isn't a case of deciding whether we want to be a good person or not. We can decide that we will follow the rules so that we don't wind up in trouble with the law, (good behaviour out of fear), or we can be a good person in order to be well thought of, (good behaviour out of pride). I suggest that what God calls us to is good behaviour because we love goodness for its own sake, and I suggest that isn't about just making a decision. It is something much deeper and as a Christian I suggest that it is a loving response to that "still small voice of God" in all of us. Certainly our environment and possibly our genetics is going to have a huge impact on our ability to respond to that urging within us.I think from a non-theistic point of view it would be called our conscience and there I are proposals put forward of how this could have evolved. It comes back again to the question of whether morality is a result of having an intelligent moral basis for our existence or if we are the result of a mindless amoral combination of particles.I think that essentially covers the rest of your post as well.

I can tell you for certain that there definitely is "a genetic component to our behaviour." For everyone.
The debate is only about how much that genetic component influences us vs. how much our environtment (experiences) influence us.
I think it's different for different people. Well, that's just it, isn't it?
Maybe there isn't "any justice" in the end.We may both hope for it... and you may very well believe in it. But that doesn't make it exist.The fact that it may not exist means there doesn't have to be some way to explain it that makes sense.
(Also, just because we can't explain it in a sensible way doesn't have any bearing on it actually existing, either...) I do not understand this point.
If it's not making a decision... then it's some sort of automatic response we don't have control over?
If we don't have control over it... how can you possibly call it "justice" if we're judged on whether or not we have it?

I'm fine with that. That's all true. All I can do is suggest that we seem to have in innate sense that there should be justice in the end of some sort. This being the case it seems to me that it is suggestive that there is justice but I agree it is far from conclusive. I am not saying that we have no control over it. Again, I think Lewis does a great job of explaining it in allegorical fashion in "The Great Divorce". (Also in the climax of the Narnia book "The Last Battle".)In the end we judge ourselves and choose a path of a life based on self gratification or a life based on life on the love and joy in others. No one does it anywhere near perfectly and we can establish a trajectory one way or the other. I also believe that through our responses to situations in this life we can also change that trajectory one way or the other. It is all about our hearts. As Lewis says, those that are in hell choose it. Whether this choice is made finally in this life time or not, I don't know.

Ah... I think I see now.You don't have an issues with it "being a decision"... by "something much deeper" and "all about our hearts" you mean something along the lines of honestly-believing-in-your-decision and not just some "fake-decision" type thing.Sorry, took me a minute to click on that. Yeah, I basically just assume that all this sort of stuff depends on an honest evaluation of our own wants/desires/decisions. So when you said it was "much deeper" I thought you meant it was no longer a decision at all.I agree with your point. I don't agree with your wording... but that's really just semantics.

I did find that a difficult concept to put into words. One illustration might be this. If a Christian who is having some success at living out the concept that we see in my signature should after talking to Stile become an atheist how would he/she then behave? Would that person go on humbly loving kindness and doing justice believing that in the end it was going to make no difference to him/her, or might he/she take up a life that is self focused?This of course is the problem with much of evangelical Christianity. It focuses on making a decision for Christ, asking and being forgiven and then you're good to go. I think they should read Matthew 7:21. If the decision made doesn't change the heart I suggest that it is meaningless.