Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
9 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Two types of science
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 166 of 184 (717122)
01-24-2014 1:29 PM


Newly discovered Super Nova and the Role of American Scientists
From the wikipedia article:
SN 2014J - Wikipedia
quote:
At 19:20 GMT on 21 January 2014, Fossey and his students noticed a bright new star in their images of the galaxy Messier 82, also known as the Cigar Galaxy.[3] After comparing their image to archival ones of the same galaxy, they used observations with a second telescope to eliminate the possibility of an instrumental artefact.[5] Their discovery was reported to the International Astronomical Union's Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams, who confirmed that they were the first to spot the supernova and assigned it the name SN 2014J.
I thought I would use this example to highlight the inanity of some of the arguments presented here.
Presumably this discovery avoids the controversy surrounding the US constitution due to the fact that it was discovered by college students in London who can be demonstrated to have no motive whatsoever to find a distant super nova.
quote:
The discovery was serendipitous, because Fossey was not searching for supernovae and wanted to take advantage of a short gap in the cloud cover. He later said that "The weather was closing in, with increasing cloud, so instead of the planned practical astronomy class, I gave the students an introductory demonstration of how to use the CCD camera on one of the observatory’s automated 0.35—metre telescopes.
Yet, despite their lack of motive, this particular stellar event was discovered in a galaxy that is over one million light years away. Given that the super nova itself is a type 1A, measurements of the super nova itself will provide an independent determination of the distance to the Messier 82 galaxy.
On the other hand, what can we say of any American scientist that studies this phenomenon. That they are not doing science, but atheism? That they are going against the founding fathers who were all united in opinion and motivation? That the London scientists are just puppets of the US based National Center for Science Education? Get rid of the EPA?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-24-2014 7:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 167 of 184 (717170)
01-24-2014 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by NoNukes
01-24-2014 1:29 PM


Re: Newly discovered Super Nova and the Role of American Scientists
Exploding stars are caused by too many government regulations, the students are puppets of King George III, their results are unfalsifiable because no-one's proved them false, and in any case they can't tell us what the supernova smells like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by NoNukes, posted 01-24-2014 1:29 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 184 (724565)
04-18-2014 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by marc9000
01-19-2014 7:28 PM


Re: There's only one type of science
useless rant removed
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by marc9000, posted 01-19-2014 7:28 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 169 of 184 (724584)
04-18-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
01-09-2014 8:18 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
I'm saying that if something is observable by only one human sense, and ALSO involves millions of years in the past, hundreds of light-years away, or conflicts with the basics of Christianity or U.S. foundings, then it may become too vague to be thoroughly enough analyzed by the scientific method.
Can we foreigners still do "the other kind" of science or do the religious or US constitutional restrictions apply?
Is it not silly to claim that we could not use observations today as a tool to decipher the past?
The Oklo natural fission reactor "proves" that the radioactive decay has remained constant for at least 2 billion years - we can safely assume that the science explaining radioactivity is strong and valid though we don't see the atoms splitting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 01-09-2014 8:18 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2014 11:21 AM saab93f has replied
 Message 172 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2014 3:32 PM saab93f has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 170 of 184 (724594)
04-18-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by saab93f
04-18-2014 9:55 AM


Re: Same stuff, different day
Can we foreigners still do "the other kind" of science or do the religious or US constitutional restrictions apply?
Note the final 'or' clause in Marc9000's statement.
Marc9000 says that if it conflicts with his beliefs then it may become too vague for you to use the scientific method. So, no you probably cannot do science in Finland until Marc gets some new beliefs. Conflicting with U.S. foundings or being in deep space, or not being able to use your sense of smell would be independent reasons not to pursue a scientific investigation.
Besides, how many senses can you use to detect radioactive decay?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by saab93f, posted 04-18-2014 9:55 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by saab93f, posted 04-18-2014 1:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(3)
Message 171 of 184 (724601)
04-18-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by NoNukes
04-18-2014 11:21 AM


Re: Same stuff, different day
Marc9000 says that if it conflicts with his beliefs then it may become too vague for you to use the scientific method. So, no you probably cannot do science in Finland until Marc gets some new beliefs. Conflicting with U.S. foundings or being in deep space, or not being able to use your sense of smell would be independent reasons not to pursue a scientific investigation.
Thanks NN - that is quite unfortunate but clearer now. There are several fields of science in which my countrymen have been in the forefront but naturally all that has to stop now.
The most recent discovery in which Finnish scientists were involved in was that of "monopolar" magnetic particle - probably gay or atheistic or liberal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2014 11:21 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2014 11:11 PM saab93f has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 172 of 184 (724611)
04-18-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by saab93f
04-18-2014 9:55 AM


Re: Same stuff, different day
Can we foreigners still do "the other kind" of science or do the religious or US constitutional restrictions apply?
You can do un-American science, just don't try to smuggle it into the U.S, they have special conservative dogs that can sniff out facts in your luggage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by saab93f, posted 04-18-2014 9:55 AM saab93f has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 4:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 173 of 184 (724615)
04-18-2014 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2014 3:32 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
You can do un-American science, just don't try to smuggle it into the U.S, they have special conservative dogs that can sniff out facts in your luggage.
You mean "fundamentalist" dogs, not "conservative" dogs.
There are a lot of conservatives who support science, so don't lump us all in with the fundamentalists.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2014 3:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 4:55 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 176 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2014 6:03 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 04-19-2014 12:46 PM Coyote has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 174 of 184 (724620)
04-18-2014 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Coyote
04-18-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
Coyote writes:
There are a lot of conservatives who support science, so don't lump us all in with the fundamentalists.
By "a lot," are you talking absolute numbers or percentage? Either way, do you have any evidence so support your claim? You may need to define the terms "conservative" and "support science" as part of your proffer of proof.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 4:04 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 6:00 PM subbie has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 175 of 184 (724626)
04-18-2014 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by subbie
04-18-2014 4:55 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
...your proffer of proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 4:55 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 11:17 PM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 176 of 184 (724627)
04-18-2014 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Coyote
04-18-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
You mean "fundamentalist" dogs, not "conservative" dogs.
There are a lot of conservatives who support science, so don't lump us all in with the fundamentalists.
While I see your point, I have checked this quite carefully and the fictitious dogs inhabiting my flight of fancy are in fact all conservatives. Get your own imaginary dogs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 4:04 PM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 184 (724645)
04-18-2014 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by saab93f
04-18-2014 1:26 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
The most recent discovery in which Finnish scientists were involved in was that of "monopolar" magnetic particle - probably gay or atheistic or liberal.
Or one might choose not to pay Mr 9k any attention. Remember, this is the same guy who thinks that his water pipes freezing proves there is no human induced climate change.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by saab93f, posted 04-18-2014 1:26 PM saab93f has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 178 of 184 (724647)
04-18-2014 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Coyote
04-18-2014 6:00 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
Sorry, but given that conservatives as a group support creationism, deny climate change, and misrepresent the facts about contraceptives, abortion and AIDS for political purposes, your assurance that "a lot" of conservatives support science fails to convince me.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 6:00 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 11:33 PM subbie has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 179 of 184 (724649)
04-18-2014 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by subbie
04-18-2014 11:17 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
Sorry, but given that conservatives as a group support creationism, deny climate change, and misrepresent the facts about contraceptives, abortion and AIDS for political purposes, your assurance that "a lot" of conservatives support science fails to convince me.
You paint with too broad a brush.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 11:17 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by subbie, posted 04-18-2014 11:43 PM Coyote has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 180 of 184 (724650)
04-18-2014 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Coyote
04-18-2014 11:33 PM


Re: Same stuff, different day
I did not say all conservatives, I said conservatives as a group.
If what you say is correct, it won't be hard to name "a lot" of conservatives who don't support any of those things. Can you?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 04-18-2014 11:33 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Coyote, posted 04-19-2014 12:44 AM subbie has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024