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Author Topic:   The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 181 of 342 (718462)
02-06-2014 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Eliyahu
02-06-2014 12:01 AM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Yes I do. It says that evolution took place in far away places, small isolated places, and the evolution there went relatively fast. And that, according to the PE theory, is the reason that we cannot find any proof for evolution in the fossil record, because it happened in small far away places, very fast.
It doesn't say that evolution took place in far away places. It says that changes happen over hundreds of thousands to millions of years in a small population, and then that small population spreads out and replaces other populations that did not evolve as quickly. That's it.
So the PE theory is an attempt to give an explanation for the total lack of evolution in the fossil record.
"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationistswhether through design or stupidity, I do not knowas admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
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"Some discoveries in science are exciting because they revise or reverse previous expectations, others because they affirm with elegance something well suspected, but previously undocumented. Our four-case story, culminating in Ambulocetus, falls into the second category. This sequential discovery of picture-perfect intermediacy in the evolution of whales stands as a triumph in the history of paleontology. I cannot imagine a better tale for popular presentation of science, or a more satisfying, and intellectually based, political victory over lingering creationist opposition. As such, I present the story in this series of essays with both delight and relish."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past"
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Eliyahu, posted 02-06-2014 12:01 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 199 of 342 (718540)
02-07-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Eliyahu
02-07-2014 1:18 AM


Re: Nothing can ever disprove evolution
To prevent whining about "taking out of context", I give you the whole chapter of the master himself, our Charles, who devoted a whole chapter of his book to the imperfections of the fossil record.
I see that you didn't even read the title of the chapter correctly.
"On the Imperfection of the Geological Record"
Notice that it says GEOLOGIC record, not fossil record. There is a big difference between the two. Darwin spent an entire chapter showing that the geologic processes which produce fossils would not capture gradual evolutionary changes. Nowhere did Darwin ever say that the fossil record disagreed with his theory. Darwin argued that the combination of evolution and an erratic geologic column would produce gaps in an evolutionary progression as seen in the fossil record. He argued that the fossil record is consistent with evolution.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 250 of 342 (719045)
02-10-2014 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Eliyahu
02-09-2014 12:09 AM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
quote:
Here is what an expert says about that one:
"Paleontologists just were not seeing the expected changes in their fossils as they pursued them up through the rock record. ... That individual kinds of fossils remain recognizably the same throughout the length of their occurrence in the fossil record had been known to paleontologists long before Darwin published his Origin. Darwin himself, .... prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search .... One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin's predictions. Nor is the problem a miserly fossil record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction is wrong.
The observation that species are amazingly conservative and static entities throughout long periods of time has all the qualities of the emperor's new clothes: everyone knew it but preferred to ignore it. Paleontologists, faced with a recalcitrant record obstinately refusing to yield Darwin's predicted pattern, simply looked the other way.
"
Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 45-46
.
"The record jumps, and all the evidence shows that the record is real: the gaps we see reflect real events in life’s history - not the artifact of a poor fossil record."
Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 59
According to Eldredge, the fossil record is OK, it is the predictions of Darwin who are wrong.
Exit Darwin.
The problem for you is that Darwin predicted the same thing that Gould and Eldredge would later predict:
"Only a small portion of the world has been geologically explored. Only organic beings of certain classes can be preserved in a fossil condition, at least in any great number. Widely ranging species vary most, and varieties are often at first local, -- both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; and when they do spread, if discovered in a geological formation, they will appear as if suddenly created there, and will be simply classed as new species." [Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 1st Edition 1859, p.439]
Darwin described Punctuated Equilibria as part of the original work on Evolution.
How can PE prove Darwin wrong when Darwin fully accepted PE?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Eliyahu, posted 02-09-2014 12:09 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 282 of 342 (719111)
02-11-2014 1:39 PM


PE is Evolution
As the title suggests, Punctuated Equilibria is Evolution, and that is what Eliyahu tries to avoid. Even Darwinian evolution does not require gradualism, just as Plate Tectonics can include quick (i.e. earthquakes) and slow plate movements. Both gradualism and PE are caused by the same combination of mechanism which are random mutation, natural selection, and speciation.
It's as if Eliyahu requires that all automobiles are cars, and the sight of a single pickup falsifies the existence of automobiles.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by RAZD, posted 02-11-2014 3:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 284 of 342 (719120)
02-11-2014 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Tangle
02-11-2014 1:52 PM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Given that you admit that you don't know how evolution works, don't you think that you should study it a little before you take the giant step of telling us all that the fossil record disproves it?
The greatest irony of all is that Darwin, Gould, Eldredge, et al. never said that the fossil record disproves evolution. Not once.
If we could use forensic science as an analogy, what we had in 1850 was the equivalent of a few partial fingerprints. All of these fingerprints matched the suspect, but they were not high quality fingerprints. Since then, more full fingerprints have been collected, and they also match the suspect. Of course, we don't have a second by second account for the movement of the suspect, but we have more than enough to fill in the major blanks.
That is what we have with the modern fossil record. All of the fossils support evolution. Nowhere do we find a bird to mammal transitional that would falsify evolution. Instead, we see the exact combination of features that the theory predicts we would see. Let me stress that again. ALL of the fossils support evolution, and that is what Eliyahu needs to face up to.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 286 of 342 (719130)
02-11-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by RAZD
02-11-2014 3:24 PM


Re: PE is Evolution
That is basically the amount of evolutionary difference between punctuation events where we see the new genera (not species btw) "appear suddenly" while the old genera still exists and then lasting longer in later strata.
So does Eliyahu say there is no evolutionary relationship between these genera? ... and what would be the basis for that assertion?
And that is just the start of the horses ...
More importantly, how do these fossils, or any fossils for that matter, disprove evolution?
From what I have seen, Eliyahu has confused the absence of evidence with evidence that disproves a hypothesis. Using the forensic evidence analogy again, if we don't find the suspect's fingerprints at the crime scene it does not prove that the suspect is innocent. However, finding someone else's fingerprints would lead us down the road of disproving the prosecution's case.
In the case of fossils, the fossils we do have do not disprove evolution. In fact, all of the fossils we have support the theory.What we do not have is a fossil that disproves evolution.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 302 of 342 (719236)
02-12-2014 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Eliyahu
02-12-2014 1:46 AM


Re: Fossils and life demonstrate evolution
Wrong. When there is a limited number of bases, then there is a limited number of ways in which you can recombine them.
Sure, but that is a very big number. In the case of the 3 billion base human genome, that would be 4 to the 3 billionth power.
And HOW do you think they evolve??
The major mechanisms are random mutation, natural selection, and speciation. Both gradualism and PE are the result of those same mechanisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Eliyahu, posted 02-12-2014 1:46 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 303 of 342 (719237)
02-12-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Eliyahu
02-12-2014 7:37 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Bs'd
So what you are saying is: Mutations make new species with totally different attributes.
If you had actually studied "Origins of Species" as you seemed to imply earlier in the thread, you would have known that evolution is descent with modification. New species are modified versions of what came before them, not something totally different. Our arms are modified mammal limbs, which are modified reptile limbs, and those reptile limbs are modified fish fins. All modifications, not something entirely new.
Mutations cannot do that. The DNA is like a very long, very complicated code. When you start throwing monkey wrenches in the code, which is what mutations do, then you ruin the code, and not make it any better.
If you take the chimp genome and add 40 million mutations along with recombination events, you get the human genome. Reality shows that you are wrong.
Here are some expert opinions on the subject:
Macroevolution is when one population splits into two and starts to accumulate different point mutations and indels. Every difference seen between the human and chimp genome is consistent with point mutations, recombination, and indel events.
Edited by Admin, : Fix subtitle font size.

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Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 310 of 342 (719254)
02-12-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by mike the wiz
02-12-2014 8:01 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
There is no direct logically sound argument that shows this, they can only claim that this type of, "evolution" leads to macro-evolution, by pointing to tenuous inductions of fragmentary historical evidence. As you say, mutations are not largely favourable and the accumulation of them leads to error catastrophe.
http://creation.com/...rgument-some-mutations-are-beneficial
Can you show us one difference between the chimp and human genome that could not be produced by a microevolutionary event?
Macroevolution is nothing more than the accumulation of DIFFERENT microevolutionary events in divergent lineages. Macroevolution is just microevolution plus genetic isolation.
Also, I have yet to see any peer reviewed papers to back your other claims.
So there are qualified scientists that are telling us we don't have to conflate adaptation with macro evolution, we are quite reasonable to deny the claim that it leads to that.
Trying to confuse everyone with semantic tricks, are we?
For pocket mice, we can track the adaptation of these mice to black lava fields, from the production of the beneficial mutation to the spread of that mutation in different populations.
Just a moment...
That is evolution.
Edited by Admin, : Fix subtitle font size.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 319 of 342 (720130)
02-20-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Eliyahu
02-20-2014 6:40 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
I can come up with MANY questions that evo's cannot answer.
And yet you can't even come up with one.
The point however, remains, that the fossil record is in agreement with creation, and rebuffs evolution.
Buying a trophy at the trophy shop does not make you a champion. Declaring yourself the winner while ignoring all of the evidence is extremely dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 330 of 342 (720492)
02-24-2014 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Eliyahu
02-23-2014 2:05 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
The fossil record shows only STASIS,
That doesn't look like stasis to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 2:05 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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