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Author Topic:   The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 271 of 342 (719087)
02-11-2014 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 6:32 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Eliyahu writes:

So we agree it doesn't work like that.

Can now somebody tell me how they think it DOES happen?

If you don't understand how evolution explains the history of life, how is it that you feel qualified to have an opinion?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 6:32 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Coyote, posted 02-11-2014 10:11 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 279 by edge, posted 02-11-2014 10:49 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 272 of 342 (719089)
02-11-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 6:59 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Eliyahu writes:

Looks to me we're saying the same thing: "PE says that evolution happened in nooks and crannies, and therefore we cannot find any evidence of it."

No, we're not saying the same thing at all. Evolution and gradualism are not synonyms. It is evidence of gradualism that is not well represented in the fossil record. Evidence of evolution is everywhere throughout the fossil record.

So PE is just an explanation for the total lack of evolution in the fossil record.

No, wrong again. PE explains the underrepresentation of gradualism in the fossil record.

And since species pop up suddenly, without any link to supposed predecessors,...

Of course fossil species in one layer can be associated with fossils in older layers, just not through gradual change. For example, Chasmosaurus beli is thought to be an ancestor of Triceratops, and the similarity is obvious:

This is evidence of evolution, but not of gradualism. The paucity of evidence for gradualism is what PE attempts to explain.

...and since those species don't change during the millions of years they are present in the fossil record, therefore they are totally in line with the creation story.

Species that don't change over millions of years is consistent with the creation story? Really? You mean the creation story from the Bible? The creation story where the world is only around 6000 years old? And that's consistent with species surviving unchanged for millions of years?

Please give me some numbers of posts in which people prove that my notion of what Eldredge says is wrong.

Please take good notice that I don't want people SAYING that my notion of what Eldredge says is wrong, because everybody can say whatever he wants.

What I want is post numbers where people PROVE that point.

You're not really asking for the messages where people demonstrate how wrong and chuckleheaded you're being, because that's been done all over this thread. What you're really asking for is the message that finally made the little light go on in your head that says, "Oh, evolution and gradualism are not the same thing."

That message hasn't happened yet, but let me try again. You quote Eldredge in support of your claim that he believes the fossil record shows no evolution:

"The fossil record flatly fails to substantiate this expectation of finely graded change."

Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 163

Note that Eldredge said "finely graded change", not evolution.

--Percy

Edited by AdminModulous, : subtitle

Edited by Percy, : Replace Triceratops, it was from a site that doesn't play nice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 6:59 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5859
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 273 of 342 (719091)
02-11-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Percy
02-11-2014 8:51 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution [not]
If you don't understand how evolution explains the history of life, how is it that you feel qualified to have an opinion?

He's read the Koran or something.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 02-11-2014 8:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3882
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 274 of 342 (719092)
02-11-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 6:59 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
So PE is just an explanation for the total lack of evolution in the fossil record.

Is that what your quote mines say?

Please document.

And since species pop up suddenly, without any link to supposed predecessors, ...

They do? Is that what Gould said?

... and since those species don't change during the millions of years they are present in the fossil record, therefore they are totally in line with the creation story.

Is that the creation story? Millions of years? Stasis with sudden appearances?

So the fossil record confirms creation, and disproves evolution.

If you say so. Millions of years with long periods of stasis evident in some fossils, and (many) sudden changes throughout geological time, eventually leading to the current status of life on earth.

Sounds good to me.

But that kinda sounds like evolution...

Except there where it doesn't, there an evo must say that the layers got mixed up.

Please provide and example and maybe we could discuss it. You know, talk about the specifics a little bit rather than make sweeping generalizations.

Please give me some numbers of posts in which people prove that my notion of what Eldredge says is wrong.

Ummm... pretty much all of them.

In the meantime I post some more Eldredge:

I'm not getting the same message as you. But hey, you're the big science guy so you must be right.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 6:59 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Eliyahu, posted 02-12-2014 6:47 AM edge has responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3882
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 275 of 342 (719093)
02-11-2014 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 1:42 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
According to evolution, whole new species with new organs an limbs have been made, so obviously there must be some kind of mechanism for it.

So, they just popped into existence, eh?

Sounds like YEC to me.

But no, organs and limbs don't do that. They evolve.

But I see you also don't know.

I never said I was a biologist, but I'm pretty sure that my understanding exceeds yours.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 1:42 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3882
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 276 of 342 (719094)
02-11-2014 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 12:28 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
The difference is that a creationist does not call his assumptions about the deep past "sience".

Neither do we.

But then, you are way ahead of me on what sience is.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 12:28 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3882
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 277 of 342 (719095)
02-11-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 2:08 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
That was not a prediction, but an assumption. What Darwin did predict, was that future finds would fill up the gaps in the fossil record. And that predicton has been proved wrong:

So, you are saying that no gaps have been filled?

And what if Darwin was wrong about this? So what?

Your quote mine does not 'prove' this; and remember the future is still ahead of us.

Darwin believed in constant gradual evolution. He, just like Gould and Eldredge, was forced to find excuses for the fact that the fossil record totally disagrees with him.

It's called 'learning', Eli. You should try it sometime.

You do realize that Darwin lived over a century ago, or has that fact also escaped you?

The excuse is called "punctuated equilibrium".

No, the explanation is PE.

In short it is the claim that evolution only takes place in nooks and crannies, and therefore we cannot find any evidence for it.

But we do see evidence for it. That is the point. Not to mention the logic of the argument.

Are you saying that a superhero magiking creatures into existence makes more sense?

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 2:08 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Eliyahu, posted 02-12-2014 6:53 AM edge has responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3882
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 278 of 342 (719096)
02-11-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 1:57 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
For new bodyparts you need new genes, and they don't pop up out of nowhere.

But isn't that how you think new genes appeared?

Just what is your story?

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 1:57 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Eliyahu, posted 02-12-2014 6:55 AM edge has responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3882
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 279 of 342 (719097)
02-11-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Percy
02-11-2014 8:51 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
If you don't understand how evolution explains the history of life, how is it that you feel qualified to have an opinion?

My theory is that revealed truth always trumps learned truth in the world of YEC.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 02-11-2014 8:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 280 of 342 (719098)
02-11-2014 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 6:59 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Forgot to reply to this part:

Eliyahu writes:

So the fossil record shows us that there is no evidence of evolution.

For the fossil record to show no evidence of evolution would require all species to be found in all geologic eras, but that's not what the fossil record shows. What the fossil record actually shows is increasing difference from modern forms with increasing depth, a record of continual change over time, evolution.

Except there where it doesn't, there an evo must say that the layers got mixed up.

Inverted layers are both uncommon and extremely obvious, obvious like paging through an upside down book. The progression of change in the fossil record through successively higher levels of strata is precisely what evolution tells us to expect. The tilting or inverting of strata in some places long after they were originally laid down doesn't change anything or make them particularly difficult to interpret.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 6:59 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by RAZD, posted 02-11-2014 11:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 292 by Eliyahu, posted 02-12-2014 6:59 AM Percy has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18650
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 281 of 342 (719101)
02-11-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Percy
02-11-2014 11:15 AM


Re: Fossils demonstrate evolution again
Except there where it doesn't, there an evo must say that the layers got mixed up.

Inverted layers are both uncommon and extremely obvious, obvious like paging through an upside down book. The progression of change in the fossil record through successively higher levels of strata is precisely what evolution tells us to expect. The tilting or inverting of strata in some places long after they were originally laid down doesn't change anything or make them particularly difficult to interpret.

Well, unless you ignore stratigraphy and relative ages of layers (via the law of superposition), in which case you can claim almost anything. But then you are believing in a lying creator.

One wonders how Eliyahu explains deep time.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Percy, posted 02-11-2014 11:15 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Posts: 6629
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 282 of 342 (719111)
02-11-2014 1:39 PM


PE is Evolution
As the title suggests, Punctuated Equilibria is Evolution, and that is what Eliyahu tries to avoid. Even Darwinian evolution does not require gradualism, just as Plate Tectonics can include quick (i.e. earthquakes) and slow plate movements. Both gradualism and PE are caused by the same combination of mechanism which are random mutation, natural selection, and speciation.

It's as if Eliyahu requires that all automobiles are cars, and the sight of a single pickup falsifies the existence of automobiles.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4762
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 283 of 342 (719112)
02-11-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Eliyahu
02-11-2014 6:32 AM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Eliyahu writes:

Can now somebody tell me how they think it DOES happen?

Given that you admit that you don't know how evolution works, don't you think that you should study it a little before you take the giant step of telling us all that the fossil record disproves it?

A little humility goes a long way.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Eliyahu, posted 02-11-2014 6:32 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Taq, posted 02-11-2014 3:20 PM Tangle has not yet responded
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6629
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 284 of 342 (719120)
02-11-2014 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Tangle
02-11-2014 1:52 PM


Re: Fossils disprove evolution
Given that you admit that you don't know how evolution works, don't you think that you should study it a little before you take the giant step of telling us all that the fossil record disproves it?

The greatest irony of all is that Darwin, Gould, Eldredge, et al. never said that the fossil record disproves evolution. Not once.

If we could use forensic science as an analogy, what we had in 1850 was the equivalent of a few partial fingerprints. All of these fingerprints matched the suspect, but they were not high quality fingerprints. Since then, more full fingerprints have been collected, and they also match the suspect. Of course, we don't have a second by second account for the movement of the suspect, but we have more than enough to fill in the major blanks.

That is what we have with the modern fossil record. All of the fossils support evolution. Nowhere do we find a bird to mammal transitional that would falsify evolution. Instead, we see the exact combination of features that the theory predicts we would see. Let me stress that again. ALL of the fossils support evolution, and that is what Eliyahu needs to face up to.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18650
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 285 of 342 (719121)
02-11-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Taq
02-11-2014 1:39 PM


Re: PE is Evolution
As the title suggests, Punctuated Equilibria is Evolution, and that is what Eliyahu tries to avoid. ...

Even when the evidence is right in front of him as in Message 235:

quote:
Here are two more pictures of the Pelycodus fossil data, now with some additional Copelemur fossil data from a neighboring ecology:

These show the "gradualistic view" on the left, and the "punctuational view" on the right. Both show the data is the same: the horizontal bars represent the size distribution of the fossils in each layer, and these size distributions are seen to evolve from one generation to the next, from level to level, even when only size is measured (there are other differences as well, but this is a convenient way to document the data).

Note that the only "interpretations" here are how the lines are drawn, not where the data is plotted.


We could also talk about horse evolution:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/Stratmap1.htm

quote:

Hyracotherium ... represents the oldest known horse. It had a primitive short face, with eye sockets in the middle and a short diastema (the space between the front teeth and the cheek teeth).

Although it has low-crowned teeth, we see the beginnings of the characteristic horse-like ridges on the molars.

Orohippus ... is found in the middle Eocene of Wyoming, about 2 million years after the first appearance of Hyracotherium. The two genera coexisted during the Eocene, although Orohippus fossils are not as numerous or as geographically widespread as those of Hyracotherium.

Orohippus was slightly larger than Hyracotherium, but shared its generally primitive postcranial skeletal structure. For example, as in humans, the lower limb bones of the forelimb (the radius and ulna) of Hyracotherium and Orohippus are distinct and unfused. This is the primitive condition for mammals, and permits rotational movement at the elbow and wrist joints. This condition is retained by animals such as small forest dwellers who must maneuver over uneven terrain. In its postcranial skeleton, Orohippus differs from Hyracotherium by having more enlarged middle digits on its fore and hind feet, and by displaying a complete loss of the first and fifth (thumb and pinkie) toes of the hindlimb.


That is basically the amount of evolutionary difference between punctuation events where we see the new genera (not species btw) "appear suddenly" while the old genera still exists and then lasting longer in later strata.

So does Eliyahu say there is no evolutionary relationship between these genera? ... and what would be the basis for that assertion?

And that is just the start of the horses ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Taq, posted 02-11-2014 1:39 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Taq, posted 02-11-2014 4:27 PM RAZD has responded

  
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