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Author Topic:   Hast Thou ENTERED INTO the treasures of the snow?
Jaf
Member (Idle past 1195 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 1 of 66 (718736)
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


I propose this Post for the Intelligent Design threads. For what is more intelligent and creative than the wonder and beauty EACH INDIVIDUAL:Y CREATED SNOW FLAKE?

job 38:22-23 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail.

Job is the oldest book in the bible as old as 5000 years old according to some, if your going to ask me for my source for this i'll ask you for your source that the universe is 13.7 billion years old okay? So don't be a pain.

Question: How can you ignore this scripture as to God's REVEALING His knowledge of the wonders of snow 5000 years before the microscope? AND NOT BE CONSIDERED INTELLECTUALLY IMMORAL for doing so?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AKg40OUi-w

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.


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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 66 (718737)
02-08-2014 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


Science...NOT Faith
keep in mind, though, that the intelligent design forum requires science...it is NOT a faith based forum....is that ok with you?
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Jaf
Member (Idle past 1195 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 3 of 66 (718738)
02-08-2014 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
02-08-2014 2:50 AM


Re: Science...NOT Faith
My post has nothing to do with faith it is the science of the snow mentioned in 5000 year old book,

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.


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Admin
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Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4 of 66 (718739)
02-08-2014 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jaf
02-08-2014 6:20 AM


Re: Science...NOT Faith
Hi Jaf,

If you like I can promote your thread to the Is It Science? forum where you can discuss whether Job 38:22-23 is science.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Jaf
Member (Idle past 1195 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 5 of 66 (718740)
02-08-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
02-08-2014 7:32 AM


Re: Science...NOT Faith
Yes okay, but that's not really the point is it, the treasure of the snow is scientific fact, and the fact that it is pointed out clearly in very old document, is also a fact. Do you agree? I don't want to be hoodwinked into having to defend against on going petty accusations of "faith based" religion.
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Admin
Director
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From: EvC Forum
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Member Rating: 1.8


Message 6 of 66 (718742)
02-08-2014 5:56 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Hast Thou ENTERED INTO the treasures of the snow? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Modulous
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Posts: 7418
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 7 of 66 (718751)
02-08-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


I think it is more likely he's talking like in the Book of Enoch:

quote:
And there I saw closed storehouses from which the winds are distributed, and the storehouse of the hail, and the storehouse of the mist, and the storehouse of the clouds; and its cloud remained over the earth, from the beginning of the world.

Enoch: 41:4

This is evidenced in other places in commonly accepted scriptures, Psalm 33:7

quote:
He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

And Psalms 135:7

quote:
He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.

Which makes sense as YHWH says 'entered the treasures' which seems to indicate a spatial location where the treasures of snow are, rather than hinting that Job had not seen ice crystals or something.

Question: How can you ignore this scripture as to God's REVEALING His knowledge of the wonders of snow 5000 years before the microscope? AND NOT BE CONSIDERED INTELLECTUALLY IMMORAL for doing so?

If it mentioned something that could only be detected with a microscope, that'd be something. Unfortunately this is not a scientific insight in the Bible. As with many poetical utterances to a culture long gone, we can make many guesses as to the meaning of the authors, but to make a case that the author was hinting that YHWH knew about the beauty of ice crystals etc is a very long stretch, I'm afraid.


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Jaf
Member (Idle past 1195 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 8 of 66 (718759)
02-08-2014 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Modulous
02-08-2014 6:31 PM


Sorry, why are you quoting Enoch in relation to this thread, are you trying to derail the thread already? If you want to quote Enoch start another thread. So you are afraid my op is Drawing a long bow, we'll okay, thanks for contributing, why is that, when the scripture is clear and not vague at all? I'm content to conclude you to be intellectually immoral not to mention a filthy pirate for quoting from an unrelated source.

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 66 (718769)
02-08-2014 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


i'm not sure that my reply will be exactly on-topic for this forum, but i feel that discussing the literary aspects of the text is the best to address the "is it science?" question.

Jaf writes:

Job is the oldest book in the bible as old as 5000 years old according to some,

well, frankly, some people think they've been abducted by space aliens, or that god talks to them through their neighbor's dog. "according to some" is a [citation needed] kind of comment. according to whom, and why are they making this argument?

in contrast to this line of argumentation, the book of job is generally agreed upon by scholars to have been written after at least the 7th century BCE, and before the end of the 4th century BCE (between 2300 and 2700 years ago). i would place the authorship sometime around the 6th century BCE (and i believe most scholars agree with me), as the themes are particularly relevant to the jewish exile in babylon (586 BCE to 538 BCE). job can easily be read as an allegory for the exile. jeremiah argues that this is a punishment brought on by judah's unfaithfulness to yahweh, and his arguments are extremely similar to that of job's three friends.

if your going to ask me for my source for this i'll ask you for your source that the universe is 13.7 billion years old okay?

i'm actually going to skip over the science question. that's perhaps a topic for another thread.

Question: How can you ignore this scripture as to God's REVEALING His knowledge of the wonders of snow 5000 years before the microscope? AND NOT BE CONSIDERED INTELLECTUALLY IMMORAL for doing so?

so, the question i have here is, what is your argument exactly? what does the book of job say about snow, other than that it is a treasure (to a country that rarely sees it)?

job is not describing the microscopic structure of snowflakes. in fact, it's not say much at all, except that yahweh is claiming this as part of his awesome creative power; a power he has over job.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1673
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 10 of 66 (718777)
02-08-2014 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


How can you ignore this scripture as to God's REVEALING His knowledge of the wonders of snow 5000 years before the microscope?

Easy, as no knowledge was revealed. You're taking modern scientific knowledge and pasting it atop an english translation of a bronze age mythologicla text . I see nothing in the quoted passage about snowflakes being unique, or crystalline or any other knowledge.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 66 (718778)
02-08-2014 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DrJones*
02-08-2014 8:20 PM


DrJones* writes:

You're taking modern scientific knowledge and pasting it atop an english translation of a bronze age mythologicla text

iron age.

(and the hebrew isn't significantly different)


אָרַח

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 12 of 66 (718779)
02-08-2014 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


Job is the oldest book in the bible as old as 5000 years old according to some

That would conflict with the usual creationist dogma, since it would put Job pre-Flood, Job mentions rain, and most fundies seem to think that there was no rain before the Flood.

I propose this Post for the Intelligent Design threads. For what is more intelligent and creative than the wonder and beauty EACH INDIVIDUAL:Y CREATED SNOW FLAKE?

Wait, you think God spends his time personally making each snowflake?

Doesn't he have something better to do?

Also, he's not very good at it, is he? Most snowflakes are asymmetric. The symmetric snowflakes you see in photos are just the 1 in 1000 good ones that get selected by photographers. So if they're made by God, he screws up 999 times out of 1000, not a very good score for an omnipotent being.

Question: How can you ignore this scripture as to God's REVEALING His knowledge of the wonders of snow 5000 years before the microscope? AND NOT BE CONSIDERED INTELLECTUALLY IMMORAL for doing so?

Er ... 'cos there isn't any scientific knowledge revealed in the quote?

But there is some scientific ignorance on display. Snow and hail are not kept in treasuries ( אֹצְרוֹת ). One could excuse this as poetic license, but to hold it up as scientific knowledge is ridiculous. Oh, and thunder isn't God shouting either.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7418
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 13 of 66 (718785)
02-08-2014 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jaf
02-08-2014 6:55 PM


Sorry, why are you quoting Enoch in relation to this thread

That and the other quotes from accepted scriptures were to support the notion that the ancients of the near east believed snow and hail and winds were kept in gods storehouses.

I'm content to conclude you to be intellectually immoral not to mention a filthy pirate for quoting from an unrelated source.

Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person. You agreed this rule when you signed up. Why are you breaking your word?


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5277
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 14 of 66 (718786)
02-08-2014 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:36 AM


Tell me more about the treasures of the hail, Jaf. I know it enriches roofing contractors and dent-repair guys, but what other treasures hath hail? Yes, it is made of concentric shells, but Job could readily have seen that for himself.

And no, your verse doesn't even try to allude to the shapes of snowflakes...


"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 66 (718789)
02-08-2014 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
02-08-2014 8:28 PM


Dr Adequate writes:

Doesn't he have something better to do?

if you read the bible and come to the conclusion that god wasn't sometimes pretty reprehensible, i'd question your reading comprehension. actually, in the book discussed in the OP, this is the portion where yahweh shows up and begins to lay into job about why job doesn't have the right to question him for his unjust actions. so... yeah. that's kind of the point of the book: making snowflakes is more important to yahweh than insuring justice exists in the world.

Snow and hail are not kept in treasuries ( אֹצְרוֹת ).

there's nothing in the word that necessarily indicates it be translated as "treasuries" a place rather than "treasures", as it is just a simple plural of "treasure". it is the context,

quote:
הֲבָאתָ, אֶל-אֹצְרוֹת שָׁלֶג

have you entered the treasures/treasuries of snow?


that indicates the author means a place. but i agree that it's probably a poetic thing, and you shouldn't read too much into it.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

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