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Author Topic:   Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example
Faith
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Posts: 26608
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 78 (722031)
03-14-2014 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
03-14-2014 7:34 AM


Re: More untrue statements
I've been trying to keep away from debate on this thread, and I figured I'd eventually do some thinking about the evaporites question from a Flood perspective though I haven't done so yet. But your saying that of course evaporites must have been exposed to air because they did evaporate does make one wonder if that's necessarily how it always happens. Even exposed salt lakes aren't produced only by evaporation but partly by seepage into the ground. And water would be expected to seep down through the strata too. That's what leads to cementation of the rock as it carries the chemicals that bring that about. So for starters I'd question the need for exposure to air.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 03-14-2014 7:34 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26608
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 78 (722032)
03-14-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
03-14-2014 2:20 PM


Re: More untrue statements
There is no other explanation that YOU can think of, RAZD, but never underestimate the creativity and critical thinking of a creationist.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
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Posts: 16168
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 33 of 78 (722034)
03-14-2014 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
03-14-2014 1:59 PM


Re: More untrue statements
Faith writes:

Not if there is some explanation for the evaporation of the salts after the column was laid down.

Well, yes, of course, this is true of anything. The speed of light is a constant, unless it isn't. The Earth orbits the sun, unless it doesn't. Pigs can't fly, unless they can.

So let the record show that you have as much evidence for an alternative method for producing evaporites as you do that pigs can fly.

--Percy


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RAZD
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Posts: 19225
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 34 of 78 (722035)
03-14-2014 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
03-14-2014 2:31 PM


Re: More untrue statements
No Faith, there is no explanation you can think of that doesn't involve magic behavior.

Creativity yes, critical thinking no.

Critical thinking means considering untested concepts to be opinions, assumtions and guesses, and ones that violate known behavior for no given cause to be fantasy or delusion.

The magic behavior of water to sort layers and fossils to appear as if laid down over millenia and erode contrary to observed processes for example.

You invoke magic and then try to pretend that it is rational and logical.

The earth is billions of years old. Pretending otherwise is ... pretending.

Avoiding the massive evidence of an old earth is not critical thinking.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 2:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26608
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 78 (722036)
03-14-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
03-14-2014 2:48 PM


I've nevRe: More untrue statements
I've never ever ever invoked magic, ever.

I thought science was the process of rethinking things. So I'm setting myself the task of rethinking the salt deposits. It may take a while.

Meanwhile there is good evidence that the earth is not billions of years old.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19225
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 36 of 78 (722038)
03-14-2014 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-14-2014 2:27 PM


More fantasy
... Even exposed salt lakes aren't produced only by evaporation but partly by seepage into the ground. And water would be expected to seep down through the strata too. That's what leads to cementation of the rock as it carries the chemicals that bring that about. So for starters I'd question the need for exposure to air.

Salt is dissolved in water. When the water seeps into the ground it carries the salt (and other dissolved minerals) with it. To get crystals you need to remove water.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 2:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 03-14-2014 5:45 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 3:34 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19225
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 37 of 78 (722039)
03-14-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
03-14-2014 2:54 PM


Re: I've nevRe: More untrue statements
Science is the process of TESTING things not making up fantasies based on magical behavior.

... It may take a while.

Indeed, it may take as long as a geological age ...

Meanwhile there is good evidence that the earth is not billions of years old.

Start a new thread and provide this purported evidence. Or deal with Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 ...

I consider anyone who believes in a young earth and does not deal with that thread to be delusional.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 2:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 3:40 AM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 10065
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 38 of 78 (722052)
03-14-2014 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
03-14-2014 2:58 PM


Re: More fantasy
Faith writes:

Even exposed salt lakes aren't produced only by evaporation but partly by seepage into the ground.

Salt lakes are produced by leaching salt from the ground and not by the reverse.

RAZD writes:

Salt is dissolved in water. When the water seeps into the ground it carries the salt (and other dissolved minerals) with it. To get crystals you need to remove water.

That's not the only way to remove water from salt. The process Faith describes sound something like reverse osmosis. But that is not a possible explanation either.

I can imagine, with some difficulty, that something deep underground might serve as a semi-permeable surface for reverse osmosis to occur at some high pressure place deep underground, but that imagining probably reflects my lack of knowledge of geology.

As you've suggested, desalination by seepage cannot occur above ground with just atmospheric pressure to drive the process. Seepage is just going to pick up calcium, magnesium, etc. making the water hard.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Percy
Member
Posts: 16168
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 39 of 78 (722060)
03-14-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-14-2014 2:27 PM


Re: More untrue statements
Faith writes:

But your saying that of course evaporites must have been exposed to air because they did evaporate does make one wonder if that's necessarily how it always happens.

Why, Faith? What is it that makes you wonder? Is it the pristine shores of the Dead Sea that makes you think there must be another explanation for salt deposits:

Or maybe it's the absense of salt deposits at the Great Salt Lake that leads to speculations about other ways that evaporites form:

Or maybe it's the beautiful salt-free lake at the Bonneville Salt Flats:

Or maybe it's the minuscule dimensions of underground salt mines:

You're not discussing or debating. You're just making expressions of faith, in essence saying, "I believe that one day evidence supporting my position will be found. I have no such evidence now, but I shall argue interminably anyway by simply stating this over and over and over again in a variety of ways."

You never hear anyone else making equivalently empty arguments out of thin air, like, "Hearing that Jesus overturned the tables of the moneylenders at the temple makes one wonder if the temple wasn't necessarily in Jerusalem but in Mecca." If you don't have anything that makes sense and is supported by evidence could you just not say anything? Oh, and before you say it, stating that "I do too make sense and have evidence" is just an unsupported opinion shared by no one else.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Minor change.


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16168
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(4)
Message 40 of 78 (722061)
03-14-2014 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
03-14-2014 2:31 PM


Re: More untrue statements
Faith writes:

There is no other explanation that YOU can think of, RAZD, but never underestimate the creativity and critical thinking of a creationist.

Have you forgotten that you think other creationists are wrong? And you're once again making the specious argument, "I have no evidence or rationale now, but just you wait!"

Please, enough. Yes, if you're right and we're wrong then you need to respond with evidence and explanations demonstrating that this is so, but you have to have them before you respond, not after. In debate there's no such thing as promising that someday you'll have them.

--Percy


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 Message 32 by Faith, posted 03-14-2014 2:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26608
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 41 of 78 (722066)
03-15-2014 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
03-14-2014 2:58 PM


Re: More fantasy
Well, I got the seepage idea from Wikipedia. Guess I'll have to stop relying on noncreationist sites.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 03-14-2014 2:58 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26608
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 78 (722067)
03-15-2014 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
03-14-2014 3:08 PM


age
Meanwhile there is good evidence that the earth is not billions of years old.

Start a new thread and provide this purported evidence.

Well I believe I proved it for the Grand Canyon-Grand Staircase area if nothing else. If it's okay with you to think there were something like 700 million years with no tectonic activity in that region then I guess my argument doesn't mean anything to you. Anyway I restated that argument at my blog. No interest in discussing it further here.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 03-15-2014 9:29 AM Faith has responded
 Message 48 by herebedragons, posted 03-15-2014 10:21 AM Faith has responded

    
saab93f
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 43 of 78 (722071)
03-15-2014 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
03-15-2014 3:40 AM


Re: age
There's been no tectonic activity in my neck of the woods for at least 2 billion years. OTOH there is very clear evidence of an ice age some 12000 to 9000 years ago and also straightforward evidence of what hundreds of millions of years of erosion can accomplish.

You are to be commended, Faith. You are diligent and hard-working but all in all when you are as wrong as can be in your premise, all that hard work comes to nought. It is EXACTLY as if I were to try and explain weather and climate on the premise that Harry Potter stories with witches and wizards are in fact real.


This message is a reply to:
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JonF
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Posts: 3993
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 44 of 78 (722074)
03-15-2014 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
03-15-2014 3:34 AM


Re: More fantasy
Well, I got the seepage idea from Wikipedia. Guess I'll have to stop relying on noncreationist sites.

It would be a better idea to start understanding noncreationists sites, and stop making things up.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Wikipedia article on evaporites that indicates formation by seepage into the ground. On the contrary, the article mentions only one possible method of formation:

quote:
Although all water bodies on the surface and in aquifers contain dissolved salts, the water must evaporate into the atmosphere for the minerals to precipitate. For this to happen, the water body must enter a restricted environment where water input into this environment remains below the net rate of evaporation. This is usually an arid environment with a small basin fed by a limited input of water. When evaporation occurs, the remaining water is enriched in salts, and they precipitate when the water becomes supersaturated.

The only occurrence of the string "seep" in the article is:

quote:

Thick non-marine deposits that accumulate tend to form where evaporation rates will exceed the inflow rate, and where there is sufficient soluble supplies. The inflow also has to occur in a closed basin, or one with restricted outflow, so that the sediment has time to pool and form in a lake or other standing body of water. ... Evaporite depositional environments that meet the above conditions include:
...
Non-basin areas fed exclusively by groundwater seepage from artesian waters
Example environments include the seep-mounds of the Victoria Desert, fed by the Great Artesian Basin, Australia

which refers to water seeping into the depositing environment slower than the evaporation rate.

There's no way to form an evaporite by adding water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 3:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19225
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 45 of 78 (722075)
03-15-2014 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
03-15-2014 3:34 AM


Re: More fantasy
Well, I got the seepage idea from Wikipedia. ...

Seepage does occur, but the salt would still be dissolved, it doesn't dry out on its own, normally it needs heat (sunlight) and a place for water vapour to go (atmosphere).


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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