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Author Topic:   Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example
RAZD
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Posts: 18462
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 46 of 78 (722077)
03-15-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
03-15-2014 3:40 AM


earthquakes -- who's fault is it?
Meanwhile there is good evidence that the earth is not billions of years old.

Start a new thread and provide this purported evidence.

Well I believe I proved it for the Grand Canyon-Grand Staircase area if nothing else.

No you just asserted it.

... If it's okay with you to think there were something like 700 million years with no tectonic activity in that region then I guess my argument doesn't mean anything to you. ...

1st it doesn't matter how long a period goes without tectonic activity, it is not a periodic cycle behavior. There is no 'law of earthquakes' that one must occur within any set time for every location on earth. Other places have gone longer without, and maybe that is something you can explore further on this or another thread.

2nd there WAS activity, there are lots of faults that cross the canyon, that such activity didn't satisfy you in type and size of displacement is more related to your unscientific expectations (ie--not based on theory or hypothesis derived from evidence).

But again that is a different topic. Perhaps a new thread on earthquakes?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 3:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 11:42 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 47 of 78 (722078)
03-15-2014 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
03-15-2014 3:34 AM


Please Stop Making Things Up
Faith writes:

Well, I got the seepage idea from Wikipedia.

Really. Wikipedia told you that one way lakes increase in salinity is when water seeps out of the lake into the ground. This is from the Wikipedia article on salt lakes:

Wikipedia writes:

Salt lakes form when the water flowing into the lake, containing salt or minerals, cannot leave because the lake is endorheic (terminal). The water then evaporates, leaving behind any dissolved salts and thus increasing its salinity, making a salt lake an excellent place for salt production. High salinity will also lead to a unique flora and fauna in the lake in question; sometimes, in fact, the result may be an absence or near absence of life near the salt lake.

If the amount of water flowing into a lake is less than the amount evaporated, the lake will eventually disappear and leave a dry lake (also called playa or salt flat).

Obviously it wasn't *that* Wikipedia article that misinformed you, so which one was it?

What RAZD was trying to explain to you was that salt in solution will seep out of a lake with the water. The ground is not some superfilter capable of removing Na and Cl ions from solution.

Let me repeat. If evaporites formed after the flood then all geological layers must have formed after the flood because evaporites are found in all levels of the geologic column. There is no way of separating underground water from its dissolved components while constructing an immensely thick salt layer in the midst of sedimentary layers, and certainly not one that also somehow gathers all the other normal constituents of a body of water on the surface.

Conduct your own experiment. Dissolve a few teaspoons of salt in a glass or water. Now, separate the water from the salt without using evaporation. You can use whatever materials you want, like paper towels, coffee filters, dirt, rocks, gravel, wood, flower petals, etc. Good luck.

When you're done with your experiments you might want to look up desalination and read how difficult the problem really is. Were separating salt from water a simple matter of passing it through a layer of dirt then the world's water problems would be solved and there would be no need for the desalination plants dotting the coastlines in and near Saudi Arabia. Now that you understand the problem, perhaps you can describe for us the large scale reverse osmosis processes that took place naturally underground and produced all that salt.

This salt thing is as boneheaded an idea as the one you had about deeply buried layers rotating, whose major significant problems you still don't seem to understand, especially the exceedingly simple geometric problem, which I present here. Here is a sequence of geologic layers:

And here are the bottom four layers rotated sort of like the supergroup at the Grand Canyon:

But those layers stretched for miles in all directions. Where did all the missing material go. Here's a diagram showing the rotated missing material:

Do you see now that the rotated material should have extended for miles up into the sky and miles down into the interior of the Earth? Where did it all go, Faith? This isn't just a little missing material - it's thousands of cubic miles of missing material.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 3:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 03-15-2014 11:26 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 11:36 AM Percy has responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1324
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 48 of 78 (722080)
03-15-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
03-15-2014 3:40 AM


Re: age
Well I believe I proved it for the Grand Canyon-Grand Staircase area if nothing else. If it's okay with you to think there were something like 700 million years with no tectonic activity in that region then I guess my argument doesn't mean anything to you.

Wow, that is SOOOO funny. I laughed quite hard. 1880+ posts and that is all you got???

But the good news:

Anyway I restated that argument at my blog.

I made it onto Faith's blog!!!! Hoot, hoot!!!

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 3:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 12:18 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4638
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 49 of 78 (722081)
03-15-2014 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Percy
03-15-2014 10:13 AM


Re: Please Stop Making Things Up
Ha, gay geology, that'll get Faith going......

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 03-15-2014 10:13 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 78 (722082)
03-15-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Percy
03-15-2014 10:13 AM


Percy: Please Stop Your Straw Man Arguments
I haven't even thought about the salt problem and here you are answering thoughts I haven't even had. I found an article that said seepage PLUS evaporation was involved in the formation of salt lakes. Period. Yet you've gone and made some kind of theory out of it you feel a need to answer, another straw man invention of your own. Maybe you just like having a conversation with yourself. I have yet to think about the salt issues and I'll let you know if I finally get around to it. End of subject.

The rotated strata were broken off, Percy, not rotated up into the sky. There must be places along the length of the area where those strata continue to exist in their original horizontal form. Besides, here you are again focusing on an argument I wasn't making. I specifically did NOT make that argument at my blog, where the whole focus is on the strata above, that 700+ millions of years of no tectonic activity. Again, I'll let you know if I take up the angular unconformity argument again.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 03-15-2014 10:13 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 78 (722084)
03-15-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by RAZD
03-15-2014 9:29 AM


Re: earthquakes -- who's fault is it?
Right, NO tectonic activity for hundreds of millions of years. Perfect ad hoc response to a problem nobody even knew existed until I pointed it out. Although the continents have supposedly been moving steadily along for that whole time. Ah well. The fault lines show that they occurred after all the strata were in place too. Ah well.
This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 78 (722087)
03-15-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by herebedragons
03-15-2014 10:21 AM


Re: age
Wow, that is SOOOO funny. I laughed quite hard. 1880+ posts and that is all you got???

Sure, it's an extremely simple argument, blasts the Old Earth to smithereens. But only for those honest enough to get it and admit it.
The reason the thread took so many posts was the other subjects and the weird misreadings of my simple argument.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by herebedragons, posted 03-15-2014 10:21 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3535
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(4)
Message 53 of 78 (722105)
03-15-2014 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
03-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Percy: Please Stop Your Straw Man Arguments
You did not find an article that said salinity is increased by seepage. You did not find an article that said evaporites form by seepage into the ground. You saw the word "seepage" somewhere and made up a ridiculous story based on your inability to understand simple written English.. 9
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 11:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(6)
Message 54 of 78 (722108)
03-15-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
03-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Please Stop Making Things Up
Faith writes:

I haven't even thought about the salt problem and here you are answering thoughts I haven't even had.

You're still just making things up, now about what you wrote just a few posts ago. I replied to what you said about the salt problem, here it is again from Message 31:

Faith in Message 31 writes:

But your saying that of course evaporites must have been exposed to air because they did evaporate does make one wonder if that's necessarily how it always happens. Even exposed salt lakes aren't produced only by evaporation but partly by seepage into the ground. And water would be expected to seep down through the strata too. That's what leads to cementation of the rock as it carries the chemicals that bring that about. So for starters I'd question the need for exposure to air.

You're just flat out lying in accusing me of replying to thoughts you haven't even had. I replied to precisely what you said. Have some decency, will you, own up to what you say, and stop making false accusations. The arguments are *your* arguments, not things other people are making up.

You also said in Message 41 that you got the idea that increased salinity can be caused by seepage from Wikipedia:

Faith in Message 41 writes:

Well, I got the seepage idea from Wikipedia.

But that's not true, either, is it. You just made that up, and then you took a gratuitous and completely fallacious shot at respectable websites that go to great efforts to get things right:

Faith continuing in Message 41 writes:

Guess I'll have to stop relying on noncreationist sites.

You're behavior is despicable. Wikipedia made no such mistake as you accuse it of, but will you own up to this false accusation? Of course not, because you're just a typical fundamentalist Christian willing to sacrifice all honesty and integrity in the name of some misguided faith in a book written by prescientific nomads. Why don't you come clean, you'll feel so much better.

On the same subject you also said this:

I found an article that said seepage PLUS evaporation was involved in the formation of salt lakes.

The lying just doesn't end with you, does it. Produce the article. That's all you have to do, just produce the article. Having trouble finding it? Just go to your browser's history and scan down the list of webpages until you find it.

And if the article doesn't really exist, just admit it. And then don't pull stunts like this anymore. Your words are right there in your old posts, it's not like you can hide what you say, unless you start deleting things you wish you hadn't said.

The rotated strata were broken off, Percy, not rotated up into the sky.

Again, Faith, please stop making stuff up. There is no evidence of rotation while buried, there is no evidence of these layers lying flat with broken ends elsewhere in the area. Were you to find such evidence you could offer it in support of your made up position, but no such evidence has ever been found. You're again arguing, "Someday evidence will be found proving me right." In the meantime you have no evidence supporting your position, no rationale either, and all the evidence is against. Of that which one does not know, one must remain silent. Learn this lesson, cherish it, love it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 11:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 55 of 78 (722130)
03-16-2014 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
03-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Percy: Please Stop Your Straw Man Arguments
I found an article that said seepage PLUS evaporation was involved in the formation of salt lakes.

If I had read such an article, I would have known immediately that seepage was not contributing directly to desalination, and I would have look further for the role that seepage was actually described to have had. Perhaps you simply don't have enough background knowledge to actually read a scientific article. You've certainly admitted to that before.

When you are not capable of vetting what you read, you are highly likely to end up with a 'quote mine' which is simply a quote or summation from article that is actually contrary to what the article actually says. Quote mines looks a lot like lying, but often they are simple mistakes. I like to be pretty slow on the draw with the 'L' word, but sometimes in the heat of the argument I have thrown it.

specifically did NOT make that argument at my blog, where the whole focus is on the strata above, that 700+ millions of years of no tectonic activity.

I'm not sure why this is an issue. Is it a problem or thousands of years of non activity despite what would be a hugely higher velocity of continental drift using your preferred time period? Do you know enough geology to say whether you've encountered a problem? How do you know there has been no seismic activity?

As long as we're changing the subject, what effect do you think demonstrating that you cannot read properly has on your credibility in other threads that are strictly discussions about what you've read? Hint. It ain't good.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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 Message 50 by Faith, posted 03-15-2014 11:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18462
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 56 of 78 (722135)
03-16-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
03-16-2014 12:33 PM


Seepage
If I had read such an article, I would have known immediately that seepage was not contributing directly to desalination, ...

As far as I can see seepage could affect salt crystallization in two ways:

1st by seeping into the basin from underground where it has accumulated dissolved minerals such as salts, and

2nd by periodically seeping out of basins leaving thin shallow layers of brine that would heat up faster and evaporate more than deep layers could.

Other than that it would be a wash ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 03-16-2014 12:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2014 12:58 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 57 of 78 (722160)
03-17-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
03-16-2014 12:33 PM


Re: Percy: Please Stop Your Straw Man Arguments
NoNukes writes:

I like to be pretty slow on the draw with the 'L' word...

Me too - first time in over 14 years.

--Percy


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 58 of 78 (722167)
03-17-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by RAZD
03-16-2014 7:56 PM


Re: Seepage
As far as I can see seepage could affect salt crystallization in two ways:

As you have worded it, I agree. But what about situations where the water introduced into the situation is carrying more than the saturation amount of salt? This could happen because of tiny particles of salt suspended in the water, or because the water is mechanically transporting chunks of salt. Maybe even because the water flowing into the basin as at higher temperature than the water in the basin. In those cases if the transporting water seeps away, perhaps after cooling, salt in some form or another, can left behind.

However, it is clear that none of this is what is discussed in the wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorheic_basin

quote:
Normally, water that has accrued in a drainage basin eventually flows out through rivers or streams on the Earth's surface or by underground diffusion through permeable rock, ultimately ending up in the oceans. However, in an endorheic basin, rain (or other precipitation) that falls within it does not flow out but may only leave the drainage system by evaporation and seepage. The bottom of such a basin is typically occupied by a salt lake or salt pan.

Seepage is a way for water to leave and of course the water must leave to produce a salt pan. But the article says nothing about seepage increasing the amount of salt, or that seepage alone could produce a salt lake. You have to get to that point by a 'motivated reading'. That is, the kind of reading you would do to prove that the theory of evolution is responsible for Holocaust, or that the RCC is responsible for Lincoln's assassination, or that hating Jews for their religious practices is not anti-semitic, or that mutations do not add diversity, or ... (cue up the heading for Faith's next thread).


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18462
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 59 of 78 (722176)
03-17-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Percy
03-17-2014 12:04 PM


when is a false statement a lie?
NoNukes writes:

I like to be pretty slow on the draw with the 'L' word...

Me too - first time in over 14 years.

Yes, lying carries the connotation of intent to deceive rather than just making a false statement.

One simple rule of thumb could be that the first time a false statement is made that it is given the benefit of the doubt, but that if it is repeated after it has been demonstrated to be wrong then intent can be inferred.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 03-17-2014 12:04 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5783
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 60 of 78 (722177)
03-17-2014 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
03-17-2014 3:04 PM


Re: when is a false statement a lie?
One simple rule of thumb could be that the first time a false statement is made that it is given the benefit of the doubt, but that if it is repeated after it has been demonstrated to be wrong then intent can be inferred.

A factor that should included is whether the person making the false statement knows/believes that statement to be false.

In the case of Faith, she knows these statements she is making to us are true so she is not lying to us.

Unfortunately, to believe what she does in spite of the evidence we have presented, she is lying to herself.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


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